Changeset: 142275011
small mods
Closed by Martin Borsje
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (18822 en_GB) |
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source | PDOK aerial imagery Beeldmateriaal.nl 7,5cm (WMS) latest; North Rhine-Westphalia aerial photograph; BAG-pand |
Discussion
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Comment from aixbrick
Hwllo,
you changed Septfontainesweg from vehicle=agricultural to motor_vehicle=agricultural.
Was the sign recently be changed?
If so, you did not change the tag traffic_sign.
Regards -
Comment from Martin Borsje
vehicle includes bicycle so this blocks the road to bicycles. I guess that's not the case. If so then I will revert.
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Comment from Martin Borsje
I rode there and bicycles are allowed; there is even a bicycle route there.
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Comment from aixbrick
That means sign 250 has been replaced by sign 260 or there is an additional sign that says "Radfahrer frei"? As long as this is not the case please change it back to the original access tag.
In OSM we should tag what's on the ground, even if this is contrary to something (here: a bicycle route). Instead report the wrong sign to official people so they can replace it. After that change it in OSM. -
Comment from Martin Borsje
You can do that, assuming you are German and know the way. It is at KP 18 and directs to KP 19. The bicycle route leads you to KP 19 so effectively the road is open to them. If you close it to bicycles routers will not guide bicycles (although I would not recommend it by the very rough surface.
I cannot help inconsistent traffic signs; the bicycle route is "on the ground" - Comment from Martin Borsje
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Comment from aixbrick
That picture is outdated (March 2022). September 2023: https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=50.7891628&lng=6.0401205&z=17&focus=photo&pKey=179806008475091. They readjusted the sign "19". Now it directs to the left instead to Septfontainesweg. And that fits to OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/13364476.
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Comment from aixbrick
Changed back to "vehicle" with https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/142337774.
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Comment from Martin Borsje
Dear Aachener Stein,
Having had severe doubts about the capability of my short-term memory – I was in Seffent last Saturday – I went there again on my bike today; not a too long detour from my work.
I made the following observations, which are not in line with yours.Firstly, the road in question, the Septfontainesweg is indeed marked with a traffic sign 250, but with an undersign “Except for agricultural vehicles”. Practice shows that in these cases, unmotorised vehicles as bicycles are permitted. I have seen many instances where this kind of signed tracks and paths are used for bicycle routes.
Secondly, there is a bicycle direction sign (KP 18), which shows four different directions; the directions that matter here: one pointing NE towards Schloß Rahe and Laurensberg incl. Knotenpunkt 19 following Schurzelter Straße and one pointing East (so over the Septfontainesweg), towards Markt/Dom and AC-West Bhf.
Thirdly there is a roadmap there, which shows all regional bicycle routes and that map includes the Septfontainesweg as bicycle route.
So clearly one can and may bicycle over that road.
In case you have sleepless nights of this discrepancy between traffic signs and practice, you can contact of course the Gemeinde Aachen and ask them to put an additional undersign that excludes bicyles as well from the general vehicle forbidden by sign 250.I propose you reconsider your armchair-revert.
I can send you relevant pictures upon request but maybe you want to have a look yourself.
With kind regards,
Martin
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Comment from aixbrick
No, I do not have sleepless nights. But thanks for worrying about that. :-)
I know the situation in Seffent. And I also know that there are ways (not only in Aachen) which are signaled as a bicycle route but are legally not allowed for bicycles because of a wrong signage. As you know in OSM we have the so called "ground truth". In Seffent there are two signs: a traffic sign closing the way for all vehicles except agricultural and a guidepost with a bicycle route. The stronger sign is the traffic sign because it states the legal situation. That could be important in case of an incident on that way (maybe an accident between a pedestrian and a cyclist; a lawyer could insist, that the cyclist should not have used that way because of the traffic sign even it is a signed bicycle route).
However, a solution (beside to inform the Stadt Aachen) could be to add a bicycle=yes to the way (maybe together with an explaining note). But it is not correct to change vehicle to motor_vehicle, because that does not represent the actual traffic sign.
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Comment from Martin Borsje
Thanks for your answer!
Though you claim to know the situation in S., your description in previous replies was a bit from ground truth :)
There is legal and legal: legally a child of four is not allowed to ride a bike on the pavement; actual says different. Similar would apply here, I guess. Apart from the unlikelihood of an accident as you mention, in case of a court case the persecuted cyclist could well say "there is a cycleroute direction sign! There is no "cyclist dismount sign."
But I can live with the situation that you change/add: vehicle=no, cyclist=yes. Curious to hear if you will contact Aachen on this and their reply. Fwiw: I did that climb once with my racing bike: never again! :)
Cheers!
Martin
Ways (1-20 of 38)
- 1
- 2
- 1213875916, v1
- 1213875917, v1
- 1213875918, v1
- Septfontainesweg (8039571), v16
- Septfontainesweg (8039863), v10
- Septfontainesweg (8039864), v13
- Seffenter Berg (8040365), v12
- Senserbachweg (10158846), v33
- Wildbach (24747062), v7
- 33358415, v17
- 33358417, v12
- 33358419, v9
- 46991174, v6
- 165224272, v3
- 171451685, v5
- 171451687, v2
- 171451695, v4
- 188483397, v3
- Nederland - Deutschland (205006387), v32
- Sint-Catharinakapel (274259498), v9
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