Changeset: 82544338
Not a monorail.
Closed by Dr Kludge
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (14945 en) |
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source | Bing; DigitalGlobe; OpenStreetView; Mapillary; site visit; Tiger 2019 |
Discussion
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Comment from Claudius Henrichs
Currently the guideline for people mover infrastructure in OSM is to tag them with railway=monorail - See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Railways#Types_of_railway_line
I find this less than ideal, but it has been the consensus for the past 10 years. And actually if you look at most people mover systems they consist of one (=mono) central guiding rail with the rolling stock running on rubber tyres.
So tagging them as railway=rail is even more wrong since they don't have any outer rails.
Let me know if you are okay with me reverting the tagging of Phoenix Sky Train to monorail. -
Comment from clay_c
I retagged the Valley Metro Light Rail with "light_rail" tags a few days ago, which Dr Kludge reverted back to "train" tags. I'm not sure what tagging schema they are using here because they haven't responded to any of my questions on those changesets.
Since Dr Kludge has moved on to editing other things without providing any explanation, I'm going to assume they aren't actively maintaining rail in Phoenix and it's okay to go ahead and retag this.
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Comment from Dr Kludge
I ride the transit system. If you text 10009 to 22966, then you will see the next time the train will arrive. Hence, the cross streets are not useful as the name. The cross name was placed in the alt_name tag.
Stop 10009Rt. Valley Metro Rail East Gilbert Rd/Main St @ 07:25 PM, 07:45 PM, 08:05 PMRt. Valley Metro Rail East 44th St/Washington @ 07:15 PM, 07:37 PMRt. Valley Metro Rail West 19th Ave/Dunlap @ 07:19 PM, 07:39 PM, 07:59 PM
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Comment from Claudius Henrichs
It seems you are adapting data to fit your personal use case. The station's reference number (e.g. 10009) belongs into the reference tag of the station. It is not the name of the station though. Can you please revert your changes accordingly so the stations are tagged correctly?
If your use case is obtaining the reference number for a station may I suggest you take a look at apps using OpenStreetMap data that show this information, e.g. the app OSMand -
Comment from clay_c
Dr Kludge is being selectively responsive. He seems very proud of his work, but refuses to document or discuss the tagging scheme he's invented. What finally got him to respond here was me sending him an empty threat to edit war.
I sent a message to the DWG a couple days ago; still waiting on a response. In the meantime, I'll copy and paste the questions I previously sent him in the edit war threat:
1. Is there anywhere (OSM wiki, mailing list discussion, etc.) where you’ve documented the tagging scheme you are using for rail in Phoenix?
2. Was this tagging scheme developed through discussion with multiple collaborators, or just you?
3. Are there any data consumers (Mapbox, Wikimedia Maps, government agencies, transport agencies, etc.) that depend on Phoenix light rail being tagged as `train` rather than `light_rail`?
4. Are there any data consumers that depend on Phoenix light rail station IDs tagged as `name` rather than `ref`?
I think it's fair to say that this warrants a response beyond simply describing Phoenix's live vehical arrival texting system. This is not a feature unique to Phoenix.
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Comment from Dr Kludge
@clay_c I am just a volunteer. Sometimes all I have time for is to add one node to the map each day. That does not mean I am selectively responding to your private messages. Moreover, in private messages you have come across as bulling. In changeset 82472573 several mappers disagreed with your arm chair mechanical edits. You had to rollback many of these changes. You are impacting local knowledge and edits from local mappers.
1. I presented the tagging scheme and its usefulness in August 2018 to the #bus osm.us slack channel. The channel was just started in May 2018. I also presented the information to the #general slack channel September 2018. Yet again the edits were presented in the slack channel #imports September 2018.
2. The scheme was developed with another local transit rider TheDutchMan13. Note that Phoenix has a dynamic population. It is hard to build an active core of mappers because of the movement of people.
3. Valley Metro Org has their own webpage and rider app. No one depends on the tagging other than a couple of transit users that eat their own dog food. The existing data consumers have no trouble using the data. I still add minimal PT version 1 tags to enable this. Moreover, it is often the case that wiki page names or Q codes do not match the actual on-site information. The name tag and the wiki tag name can be completely different.
4. More than five years ago I surveyed transit system mapping across the US. They were all version 1 and largely incomplete. I am using version 2. What I found out in practice and use as a local transit rider is that the name tag as it was being used did not actually add any value to using the osm data. All the name tag gives you is a way to search for a cross street. Hence, when I have time I go and survey the stops for both bus and rail adding both the alt_name tag for search and the NextRide number for the name. The NextRide number is more useful when you are trying to catch a train or bus. It is obvious what the cross streets are when you look at a map. It is not obvious what the NextRide numbers are. Burying the NextRide in the ref tag adds no value. However, after survey I add the NextRide number into both the name and ref tags. Valley Metro Org is a massive system. That means that it takes time to drive every route with Mapillary to survey all the stops. The name tag being used for searches lead to abbreviated messes all over the map. The tagging scheme does allow for evolving to an improved use for data consumers.
As I said before, I both live here, use the transit system, and map here. You are coming off as real demanding as an arm chair mapper.
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Comment from clay_c
Dr Kludge,
When I raise questions about someone else's work that I believe needs to be reverted, I _offer for them to revert it first_ before taking it upon myself to revert it. People are usually humble enough to understand what went wrong and take responsibility for it. I appreciate when others reciprocate that favor and give me a chance to revert my own work.
In changeset 82472573, I've acknowledged and resolved all the issues with everyone involved, except for the dispute between me and you. I'm disheartened that it's taken you nearly two weeks since then to reveal the reasons you unilaterally reverted my edits. Everything I've said to you in private messages I've laid out in public as well. I'm not even saying your tagging scheme is wrong—this isn't a contest to see who's right.
So I'd appreciate it if you'd quit characterizing me as a demanding bully and devaluing my work as "armchair mapping". We are both clearly interested in improving the map, and there's no room for that kind of hostility when you're taking responsibility for part of a collaborative project.
-Clay
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Comment from Dr Kludge
@clay_c You don't work here. You don't live here. You don't survey here. You do not use the transit system here. That is armchair mapping. The problem is that you are embarrassed that you were caught doing it.
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Comment from Dr Kludge
@clay_c Yes OSM is collaborative. OSM changed building:entrance to the entrance scheme. I already told you that I have been eating my own dog food. I found that the use of the name tag for street crossings has limitations. The crossing information is only for search. I am using the alt_name tag for that purpose. Crossings are obvious from a visual review of the map. They do not need to be spelled out. The real benefit is the NextRide number. The number can be observed at the same time that the crossing information can be observed. You are not listening. It is not just the train route in question here. The whole bus system including the train route has been tagged with the NextRide number for years. You want to blow away years of work because you have armchair mapped what you think a rider needs. You ignore local knowledge and continue to refuse a reasonable explanation why the stops in the whole system are tagged the way they are keeping the transit rider in mind. Please be humble enough to understand that you are engaging in an edit war against local knowledge. Please stop. You are taking time away from my other editing.
Thanks,
Greg -
Comment from clay_c
To be clear, I'm not embarrassed about being an armchair mapper. I actually enjoy doing it from time to time, so your criticisms ring hollow to me. It's helped me forge relationships with lots of mappers around the country. And it doesn't get in the way of my survey mapping either.
I'm happy to revisit this issue when things have calmed down. This clearly matters a lot to you, but I can't seem to get anything through to you without you assuming I have some nefarious ulterior motive. The edit war you're talking about is fictional. I haven't touched the Phoenix light rail system for two weeks, and I don't plan to, so why not thank me for stopping instead of begging me to stop?
But now I know—it's because you don't consider my work to be work. I've been talking to a brick wall this whole time. I'm bowing out.
-Clay
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