Well I am looking at where you are editing from Persia, and so are these sanctions from the UK where OSMF is based or are these Iranian internet restrictions? Either way it is just dumb, sanctions only hurt average working class people governments and wealthy people get around them.

This is more or less the app I was looking for to quickly add POIs and not be overwhelming like other mobile editors yet be quick enough to update with more in depth tags. I loved the iD presets but iD is not good on the ground. This looks like it also would be good for the double tap technique in which you map the building and area from satellite then go there to add all the POIs in the area.

@Pieter Vander Vennet the Mapcomplete shopping theme has a good UI, just wondering where they host the images? This seems good for adding more information to POIs. Something like this would be good for beefing up existing valid POIs. It also seems to just ask for a phone number but I am guessing it would be trivial to add any field. If I see a shop is empty or closed there doesn’t seem to be anything to mark that and quickly strip the POI tags. It seems like it is very close to being the mobile POI editor. With some preset searches and a bit of tweaking this could be a real game changer. I might try it out with the bench view at a park just to get the workflow down.

The idea is fine but instead of a note why not just create a change-set with the node awaiting approval? Furthermore businesses need some sort of incentive to adding this so logos of big name OSM users would be good and maybe a yelp like directory / Business profiles generated from POI tags so they have something to show for and other users can search for POI types in a given location. having a percent complete requiring a website, phone and hours of operation for base complete and extra tags such as wheelchair accessibility, and extra information tags for full completeness.

Mateusz Konieczny maybe it would require a new codebase but some sharing like iD’s preset scheme could be reused. This wouldn’t even need to display a map and if it does a single OSM tile would suffice. No vectors no complexities just a little db of presets and search bar to search between them. current location puts the POI and a bunch of preset text boxes / ui for standard input from input based on the presets.

@ SimonPoole not asking for a complicated editor it could be a stripped down iD or a gloriffied script it just needs to find and make it easy to add preset POIs no UI for editing ways or polygons or complex map rendering. Just I am in front of a POI and add it where I am. I will check out Vespucci some more to see what you are talking about but this needs to be so simple a casual person could trivially add it. This is something that OSM apps can link to and possibly allow for new mappers that aren’t all that advanced but can literally just add that restaurant or local place. This wouldn’t be a full blown editor just a specialized POI add or POI check. OSM for the most part has a complete road network. Maps.Me started this but it never quite got there.

@ andre-sa Yes I know deleting something could be bad which is why it would have to be paired with some sort of Check in or It’s still here API. So that popular old restaurant could easily be checked and passed over for any deletion. Mobile apps and simple editors could expose this and make the whole thing transparent. The problem is what is worse removing a small amount of good data or having a lot of unreliable data. The thing is if you have unreliable data it taints the good data, as the system as a whole can’t be relied on. You go to a new city lets say and go to look for a local pub, and get routed to a closed one or maybe it’s a bakery now. There is no point to having the data if you can’t rely on it. You can only rely on it if there are some mechanisms that make sure that the data says fresh. Covid has upturned a lot of businesses and the problem is worse now than ever.

Zverik I saw your Video and the UI looks great and the idea is right on track. In order to have a Map-less UI you need complete and accurate data. Your app seems to make this easier however it would be even more accessible if it was a WebApp instead of relying on Telegram and at least the tagging / data side used OSM / OSM schemes. The pictures yeah that could be hosted anywhere. IPFS, LBRY, Telegram, openstreetcam, ECT.. Any friction or extra step from gathering data to pushing it to OSM will lead to a dropoff in the follow-through. At least adding something on the spot would be better than not. I like what I see and it looks very interesting.

SimonPoole don’t get me wrong Vespucci is a very powerful app, however the UI is pretty complex and is mostly geared towards power mappers. What I am talking about is simply a dead simple UI that makes adding POIs either on the go or from home dead simple. It would have local chains and presets built in and a simple search would get you the store type or preset. With many apps the UI gets in the way, we know what the problem is and just need enough of the UI to get the job done, no editing polygons, nor ways nor relations just adding a POI. It should be simple enough for your parents to do it. Vespucci will still be there for the power mappers it has it’s place for sure.

Now on showing old POIs on the editor well that is good but having a Bot that would auto delete them may be the path forward if paired with some sort of check-in or it’s still here API. The problem is most people won’t see the staleness of the POI and without a check-in we have no idea if a POI is still there especially if there is no reason to edit the POI. OSM is used by a bunch of mobile apps and this would be a good thing that could give back to OSM by just confirming yes it is still there or I just navigated there and I am there. No editor needed. The question is what is worse possibly deleting good data or keeping old outdated data on the map. Covid has really changed the business landscape worldwide there are tones of closed locations or new locations this is needed now more than ever.

DeBigC well POI measles is what the expiration and checkins would prevent. Checkins would be a simple confirmation it is still there or someone visited it and expiring / flagging for autodelete would get rid of old POIs with no interaction. thus your POI measles would be handled automatically. I know that there are a lot of businesses that simply aren’t there and the turnover rate of restaurants are pretty high. Covid lockdowns and restrictions killed a whole bunch more so there has been a big turnover all over the place. As for building it into buildings, well things can get messy especially when you have more than one level. Adding to the building takes more time effort and care I would rather have the POIs there than not.

I think it also comes down to how everything is mapped locally. Most places have the POIs in the buildings. Which technically would be true the business is located within the bounds of the building. I know some people prefer placing it on the entrance and some want even more than that. I think we all don’t want tones of old POIs or stale data this was some ways to solve the problem.

@ztzthu this isn’t a fight, ground truth is the objective rule that binds all of us. Any that stray from ground truth are the enemies, weather it is motivated by patriotism or just blind vandalism. Ground truth is the objective measure that ends all these stupid political debates. Whether it is the whiny Ukrainians over Crimea or weeping Vietnamese over some random south China sea Island. I will tell you that there is a demeanor and indoctrination to the average Chinese person that lives and is raised in China that is alarming. Especially if you bring up controversial topics. A mix of cognitive dissonance and indoctrination that to many outsiders looks like dumb blind obedience. But there is more going on there. They get it but are too cowardly or set in their ways to think about certain things so they repress it. You can see that in their faces. As far as mapping they can’t be trusted for anything that may be controversial or that the CCP may not like because they are all hostages. With the social credit score they all are at risk of being demoted to 3rd class citizens if they follow ground truth over the fake CCP narrative. I don’t hate the commies I pity them they are like children that fear the parent coming in. It is pathetic in a sense but none of them will ever admit it because they lie to themselves as that is one of the only things that keep them going and functioning in the world.

I don’t care about all these political BS just ground truth. China recently built up bases on islands disputed by other countries and they got mad and I told them regardless of how you feel ground truth is what the map is representing. The same is here. If China wants to have forced labor concentration camps don’t get all angry if people map them and label them appropriately. The amount of state propaganda that many of these Chinese mappers are subject to is enough to make most just parrot out the government talking points. Furthermore if a mapper is working on behalf the CCP or inspired by patriotism they by the very definition would be Commies. The same would be for Cuban or North Korean mappers. State based vandals don’t deserve any more respect than the spammers or degenerate vandals elsewhere. As for these map laws, it is basically China’s authoritarianism that is a problem, OSM doesn’t bow to China it bows to groundtruth. India has similar dumb laws as other places and you get into conflicts where you can’t satisfy any two authoritarian map laws without conflicting with one or the other. I can’t care less about what dumb law some dumb politicians with inflated egos wrote down on a piece of paper. Does the map describe the on the ground reality, if yes it should be there if not it shouldn’t. Who’s military, police or government is on the ground in an area determines control and borders.

@bo_hot

This isn’t a lack of prioritization, without a knowledge of a local language you can’t localize the tools, and without the knowledge of peoples needs and how they interact and use maps and what data is important you can’t tailor anything for that. Without any information you wouldn’t even know there is a lack of priority. Everyone is doing their best and doing their own thing there has been great progress that has been made already and excellent tools that have been created. Like any product or service you need to know the audience but in this case the audience is the entire planet so you have to try to zoom in on a given population as an example. Right now there are many use cases and the basics of street navigation and tagging place names and other infrastructure is all there. I have mapped using everything from a handheld GPS + camera and walking papers to a modern smart phone the barriers are shrinking given the amount of cheap tech and cheap consumer devices with GPS. I can’t say what the situation is on the ground but with walking papers just a printer and a clipboard and pencil is all you need if you already have remote tracing and edits to work off of and a single computer can compile the data and add in the information from the walking papers. I have done this so I know it works. I have made edits off of a cheap consumer netbook for years now and can say yes it is possible to edit and work on OSM with less powerful and cheaper hardware. I think you may need to see what are the things on the ground in the various locals and what resources or tools do they have then have the information and tools tailored to those communities that match their situations. Basically without the information of a given community you can’t adequately meet their needs.

@bo_hot

to simplify you need to identify

• who is the intended group you want to serve
• how would they consume or edit the maps
• what are their use cases

Then you

• Tweak existing tools to localize and make it easier to map features that fit their use cases
• market to the groups and attract interest in the project
• have infrastructure set up to help amplify or tailor the maps to their use cases and deployed in a form most can consume

I would say that the process has gotten a whole lot better over the years. iD is making it a whole lot easier for many to edit, they can even edit on a cheap chromebook which makes that tool accessible to many. Adding data from editors can be localized so memorizing or learning the technical side isn’t really needed as much. What I have noticed irregardless of what group or what mapper is that OSM allows anyone to map pretty much what they are interested in. If you like churches you add churches if you like movie theaters you add movie theaters if you like hiking trails and walking shortcuts you add them.

OSM is open the data is open and yes the contributor still technically owns their edit and can re-license their edits and place them in the public domain if they wish. OSM I feel has done more than any other project to expand it’s reach to as many communities as possible but again this is based on contributors so if there is no local community editing tourists and couch mappers will be the ones adding to the map. I see this as a marketing problem rather than inequality, as no community or even a person will ever achieve equality in anything there will always be variability. You can market to communities and try to attract and grow a community if there is a void but that is it’s own problem.

As someone who has contributed to HOT I can say I tried my best and didn’t try to do a low quality edit but I know without having at least some understanding of local architecture and landscape there will be mistakes. I also know that there are simple things that can make a big difference like charting major roads that connect towns and cities, having accurate place names with the local names and having at least some of the important infrastructure mapped such as hospitals and health care facilities. I know that I was able to download the maps offline onto my garmin and was able to navigate at least from city to city and knew if I took a wrong turn off a main road and that helped greatly in getting around. Even if I didn’t know every road in town or any road names.

I would also say that remote mappers aren’t the be all and end all. They are best done when paired with on the ground mappers so buildings can be added and roads. Then a team on the ground adds names and POIs from the street level. I like to call that the double tap, as having even a sloppy edit but real roads and buildings roughly in place it gives you something to print out or utilize on the ground. I have done some edits this way to great effect.

What I would like to see is a vector map standard that is picked up and used by all of the online maps and apps so every app isn’t rolling their own maps or having to create the infrastructure for them from scratch. You could have dynamic theming or rendering highlighting features you want to emphasize or not . Which could make it easier for people to make the maps that matter to them

The other thing I would say is what is the target method of consumption. Are people using budget android phones, iphones, chrome books, desktops, printouts on paper or posters, atlases? Like anything you need to know the audience so you can cater to them. If you want people using the data you need to know what data is important to them and how they most likely can or will consume said data. So here is where I say marketing may be the real issue. Without know these we can’t sell the idea or show the importance easily of the project.

OSM like many international projects Unicode being another face unique issues in dealing with multiple cultures, languages and communities and making things easier for the whole world to make use of it. I don’t think diversity is an issue especially when you are dealing with data now attracting a community and marketing to them so you have sustainable high quality local data is where you will naturally get to more usability and more equity. We have to know what people need and how to provide or help make it easy for them to provide for themselves.

We have the tools getting better and making things more accessible but yes there is always room for improvement. Knowing what more people expect or need or how to provide the right tools for their uses cases can be important. Having better communication between different communities also can help as well. But at the end of the day if we don’t know the intended audience and their needs no real solution can be had and this is true for more than just OSM or maps.

Congrats, I never understood the purpose of foursquare. OSM is used in multiple places it is great to see your edits being used. I see my edits on craigslist and facebook and most importantly on offline mobile maps.

Listen don’t fall for the identity politics game it is divisive. It devides people rather than bringing them together and labels people where it is not necessary, I cannot in good conscious promote or support such an endeavour. In OSM we are people no more nor less not a cis x person or an marginalized person but a person. There is no need to inject this into the community that is focused on mapping it will detract from the mission statement. If you want to promote OSM to different communities then fine but it should not need the focus or attention of the random mapper nor should they be dragged into any identity politics. OSM is free and everyone has access to the map data so I don’t see where the issue is?

Can you name any credible ways you will market OSM to other communities that will resonate with the normal everyday person and not some conception you have of people? Look at the numbers OSM mapped by the few and you need to reach the masses. What is your plan?

First off you show no evidence of any need of a CoC nor any examples of any problems with the community. Now this is a community that has already voted and promoted women to the highest positions and really is focused on it’s mission statement of creating a map for the world. Secondly given the amount of anonymous accounts how do you have any knowledge of who is mapping and whether they are marginalized or not? The OSM community has no obligation to do anything but create a map for the world, now if you want to promote OSM to people feel free, go do that.

There are practical reasons for why some people don’t map many simply aren’t interested as this is a niche activity. Secondly it costs some amount of money for equipment to map, either a computer or phone with GPS and it takes time. So really you have to convince people that it is worth their time and money to map and this is a marketing problem and not anything inherently wrong with OSM. And I don’t think it is helpful for anyone to single out a demographic and complain about how many of them there are. I makes you look bad and it makes me question if I can trust you to represent me. OSM isn’t about race or sexuality to bring this into the discussion is frankly counter productive. OSM shouldn’t be a soapbox for political platforms or ideals you will alienate people who simply just want to map and that is just mean spirited.

Interesting paper, this has confirmed my anecdotal thoughts on some things. However I would say that there is no bias towards men rather it is a project that men found interesting and decided to contribute to. OSM is open to everyone and if the default editor is not engaging to meet the needs of a community another one can be created. Look at wheelmap for example, the wheelchair using community needed the accessibility tags so they created an open and easy interface to update and add the tags they cared about.

OSM to me is non gendered as I largely don’t know the gender of the people contributing and largely don’t care. OSM has objective standards such as ground truth that seeks to weed out subjective gendered mapping. Furthermore there is no one really dictating what tags you use even if a tagging community disagrees with a tag you can still use a tag and bake it into an editor and there is no one to stop you. Most of the editors are opensource and will accept contributions.

I personally tried to find out what the broader female population’s POI preferences where and what they would like to see on a map and got the response that there is no preference they want the same things as men an accurate map they can just use. Map use in general isn’t a gendered activity but a utilitarian one thus the content isn’t controversial as long as it is accurate and based on ground truth.

That being said OSM does not have a bias toward any gender but rather was organically created by contributors and organically attracted like minds. Thus the under representation is actually a marketing issue / UI issue of attracting women to a technology project that organically grow attracted men. There is no reason why women or people interested in female participation couldn’t just make a frontend or editor that specifically caters towards women, my guess would be a mobile app that includes some social media integration which includes community building and interaction with other mappers. There is nothing stopping anyone from stepping up or trying to push forward a solution. Another way to promote female participation is to try to push OSM on female majority websites and you can try push them to use the new app. Much like how Pokemon Go uses ended up contributing when they found out their community uses OSM data.

What I would find unacceptable is shaming OSM or contributors because of the gender imbalance as OSM has been a volunteer organization and hasn’t put any gendered barrier nor has any discriminatory policies. I also would not find any solution that decreased any male participation acceptable. Rather I would like any solution to be an expansive change that grows the community and that growth skews female. This is what I call inclusive expansive growth. Then again I can be misinformed and my opinions could be garbage BS. What are your thoughts?

@Artiom Komolov ISO is used for which countries can have borders on OSM not for the borders themselves. Since Russia is an ISO recognized country there is no conflict. That being said I personally have issues with that but can see why it is there to prevent someone from just claiming land willy nilly creating new countries. But if push comes to shove and there is a conflict with that rule it should change as well but in the mean time it is fine.

@Alexee I heard there are tour buses going to Crimea from Belarus. The Crimean Bridge also makes it more connected to Russia now than any other countries even by your own admission. How is it not part off Russia now?