Changeset: 30272152
Fixed tagging
Closed by Claudius Henrichs
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (8159 de) |
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source | Bing |
Discussion
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Comment from ij_
Why did you remove välkky and provided absolutely no replacement for it (nor did you tell honestly what you did in your changeset comment)? Please revert or find a better tag, if you don't know what it is, please simply revert without asking me to spend extra time on explaining what it is (I'm beginning to get very tired of constantly complaining to about these "fixes" that randomly remove tags without any sensible process to prevent data loss). Also, don't leave it as is and force me to poll and revert (as if I would remember), which is what I've had to do with the previous removers changes, unfortunately.
I suppose this edit was is due to taginfo cleanup process which should definately fall under Mechanical Edits Policy and its review clauses but each and every mapper removing data so far have claimed that it magically doesn't. I don't believe you or them did randomly end up seeing this particular node in your editor but rather you used computer assisted search to get the nodes you edit (the search runs on Taginfo computer or on overpass) that should definately make them subject to MEP.Thank you.
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Comment from Claudius Henrichs
Hi, Thanks for your comment. To start with the last part of your comment: These are not mechanical edits, instead I review individual entries in Taginfo and correct those that appear to me a mistagged or remove others that look like tagging mistakes or redundant information.
The "Välkky=yes" tagging was added 5 years ago by user "alv" in this changeset: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/6342582
The changeset comment didn't really indicate what should be documented by this and it's the only ever use of that tag which leads to believe it was a mistake in tagging. Looking back I should've probably reached out to alv since he is still active, but I wonder if he still remember what he was tagging in November 2011. I've sent him a message to have a look. -
Comment from ij_
So, was it "mistake or redundant information", I don't believe you can say honestly you thought it would be either? That it only appears once doesn't mean it's a "mistake" and certainly you cannot decide if it's redundant information either as you don't even know what it means. Locals certainly might know what it is (I do and many mappers interested in city planning aspects likely do also) and even Google was clever enough when I pushed it slightly (it's not easy though if you don't have any clue what to look for). I suspect the other spots with "välkky" have used other tag or haven't just been tagged so far. ...So, what I said earlier still applies: find a better tag for it, or revert and let locals change it to a better tag at a later time (if there's some available, I don't know immediately nor have time to browse wiki to see if there would be some relevant tag).
See now, we end up spending again extra time on this pointless arguing. Your change was simply not good, I hope you could just accept it. In addition you probably have to accept that you might need too much local context to really fix these the way you're currently working (and perhaps some similar cases in the future you're likely to encounter if you keep doing these cleanups). I know there's lots of useful edits from this cleanup process you're participating in, also from you (I found at least one while checking your track record in Finland :-)). However, it would make it much less painful for all if you could please avoid touching keys which make absolutely no sense to you and seem like no obvious typos or such. And when you still end up occassionally making mistakes (who wouldn't), you would simply accept that a revert is the easiest way forward (less time wasted and more productive work done). No need to explain like you did as the local likely knows already enough as he/she gave you feedback which you hopefully value (if this kind of error repeats itself, I simply recommend that you say to the next mapper giving feedback that you'll leave it to the locals to fix when they come across it, they also care for the data like you do)!
And btw, I'm quite sure that alv still remembers and would have told you if you would have asked! And even better, we'd have avoided this whole episode if you would have asked _first_ and acted only after that when you know what it means :-).
I wrote to some previous guy who just removed stuff something along these line: Because of these random removals, those people doing the hard work of surveying need nowadays fear for their tags (especially if there are not yet that many of the particular tag). I hope you understand this mapper/surveyer perspective also when removing anything :-) (which is much more than what I could achieved by simply telling you what "välkky" is). Thanks.
Spoiler: "välkky" is a device that blinks or otherwise highlights the crossing traffic sign poles when it detects nearby pedestrians (or bicycles). Usually installed close to schools or some such "sensitive" places. There are at least dozens of them installed in Helsinki region alone.
And my apologies for writing so long reply, I just cannot keep replies neat and short like some other people.
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Comment from alv
Especially now that they're still in a testing and monitoring phase, i.e. the city tries to measure whether they affect the drivers' behaviour in any manner, or if some devices are better than the others, storage of the information is necessarily unorthodox.
If I were to start tagging some obscure details which only occur, say, once in each municipality, it would take a long time to add more than one of them; but it'd be pointless to remove it while waiting for others to tag them in other cities.
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Comment from alv
Oh, one more thing. Especially seldom used words in the tags can get the osm feature browse pages a nice first page visibility in general search engines' results, which can be surprisingly helpful in the future.
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Comment from Claudius Henrichs
Thanks both for clarifying. I've re-added the tagging (even though in lower case fashion). I think we should consider embedding it into the crossing=* theme though, e.g. either as crossing=uncontrolled_välkky or crossing=välkky
Adding a new tag describing the type of pedestrian crossing seems a little overkill.
It would also help tremendously if you would add at least a stub documentation to the OSM wiki so your fellow mappers like me better understand what you are trying to capture. -
Comment from ij_
Sure, the current way of tagging it is definately not the most optimal. I'd say it's more of a "reminder" type of a tag that can/should be changed to a proper tag once one discovers what that would be. I bet there are others similar ones in Finland for features that either didn't have a tag when inputted to OSM or for some reason the tag was not found from the wiki even if it existed (for non-natives it's often a challenge to figure out the magic words to locate something from the wiki).
Of course it would be even better to have some proper English key for this kind of devices (I'm assuming they might have similar ones in other countries?). There seems to flashing_lights=yes/no in wiki BTW which would be at least close, however, does it mean traffic lights type of flashing or is it more generic, it doesn't seem to have that much documentation either... ;-) However, I don't know if "välkky" itself generalizes as there seem to be many types of them and alv seems to be interested in keeping the different types too for now (it would be better in value than in a key though, at minimum).
While I understand why having wiki page on every tag would be useful for others (mainly for non-locals though), it's also rather heavy-weight for those who tend to map a lot and for example in case like this it also feels the benefits are not that high due to sparsity of the välkky devices to begin with and since it's unlikely to be the final key for these kind of devices for obvious reasons it would also likely duplicate some effort. Certainly if we know the canonical tag for something we use it and slowly convert the previously used ones to that format but mapping on large are obviously means that it would take lots of time to notice everything :-).
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