Changeset: 32230005
Minor reflagging to Fremont Bridge and Sunset/Stadium interchange ramp markings; reflagging WA 500's freeway portions from trunk to motorway.
Closed by Bickendan
Tags
created_by | iD 1.7.3 |
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host | https://www.openstreetmap.org/id |
imagery_used | Bing |
locale | en-US |
Discussion
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Comment from Baloo Uriza
WA 500 doesn't make any sense as a motorway due to it's short length and high number of at-grade intersections (at least 2 in 4 miles). Typically, motorways have no at-grade intersections, or extremely rare. Good example of a motorway with at-grade intersections would be US 412 in Oklahoma, with a ratio of 1 intersection in approximately 105 miles.
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Comment from Baloo Uriza
Further, there's no real justification for changing the highway tag for such short segments of highway, the characteristic of SR 500 doesn't change during it's entire length; the map should reflect it's consistent nature. Another similar highway that is consistently tagged correctly of the same characteristic would be OR 224 between Milwaukie and Clackamas.
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Comment from Bickendan
I wonder if this is a discrepancy in the definitions being used for motorways, freeways and expressways for OSM's purposes (noting that 'expressway' does hold different meanings between the east coast and the west coast of the US).
SR 500's length should have no bearing on whether it is a motorway or trunk, otherwise a good number of short freeways would have to be reflagged as trunk routes, including I-105 and Delta Highway in Eugene, US 30 in Portland on its approach to the Fremont Bridge, and SR 432 between I-5 and Longview, WA.
How I've flagged the sections of SR 500 is accurate to the route in the field -- it is a freeway from I-5 to NE 42nd Ave, and again from NE 54th Ave to NE Fourth Plain Blvd in Orchards, with the segment in between as expressway because of the two at-grade intersections. It is divided for the length between I-5 and Fourth Plain Blvd, making a comparison with OR 224 dubious, as it is only divided between SE Freeman Way and SE Rusk Rd; 224 does change characteristics along the Milwaukie Expressway.
The Wikipedia article notes that WSDOT has longrange plans to upgrade or eliminate the intersections with NE 42nd and 54th, and while I recall reading similar through the WSDOT site, I've emailed them asking for verification about this.
In short, based on in-field observation, SR 500 is a freeway (motorway) from I-5 to NE 42nd Ave, expressway(trunk) from NE 42nd Ave to 54th Ave, and freeway again from NE 54th Ave to Fourth Plain Blvd. The freeway segments are built to at least the same standards as along SR 14, which is marked as a motorway. -
Comment from Baloo Uriza
Generally speaking, if there's more than one at-grade intersection, it's a surface expressway in the Oregon/Washington sense (of a freeway with intersections), even if there are fully separated interchanges between intervening intersections. Motorway would be for situations where it's a one-off or very rare instance for at-grade intersections (like I 80 in Wyoming and Utah, or the Keystone Expressway in Oklahoma). 500 would be a poor fit for motorway as, out of 9 junctions, 3 or 4 of them are at-grade: That's nearly batting .500 there...
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Comment from Peter Dobratz
Bickenden, where did you get the name "Kerby Ave Ramp"?
The first thing that jumps out is that it goes against the convention of not using abbreviations in street names in OSM. Generally,all of the various _link roads (such as highway=motorway_link) don't have the name tag.
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Comment from Bickendan
It's local nomenclature for this particular ramp, and the only one to have it. I doubt it's signed as such on inventory tags along the ramp, but I will attempt to field verify this. I do know the BGS signage for this exit on northbound I-405 indicates Kerby Ave, which is where the ramp's name likely comes from.
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Comment from Peter Dobratz
The general convention is to leave the name tag off of the Way object for the highway=motorway_link. Instead, this same information is put onto the Node where the motorway_link leaves the motorway in the form of highway=motorway_junction with an exit_to tag. This has already been done for this area on the following Node:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/40378782 -
Comment from Peter Dobratz
There's some discussion about ramps currently happening on the talk-us email mailing list:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2015-July/015121.html -
Comment from Peter Dobratz
I happened to drive by here today. As you are exiting I-405 North, there is a sign that says "Kerby Av Exit Only". After you exit, there is a sign that says "Kerby Ave." On the way back as you are entering the on-ramp, there is a sign that says "Fremont Br =>". Based on the wiki documentation and the generally established OSM conventions, I believe it makes sense to remove the "name=Kerby Ave Ramp" tag on these Way objects.
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Comment from Baloo Uriza
no name or Fremont Freeway would be acceptable values for the name to me. destination=Kerby Avenue is a possible value for the offramp.
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Comment from Bickendan
Fremont Freeway would be an incorrect designation. It'd either be an extension of the Stadium Freeway or part of the cancelled Prescott Freeway. If Kerby Ave Ramp is not a designation we want to use, then it should revert to being blank.
Related: Exit 2 westbound I-84 and Exit 3 eastbound I-84. Exit 2 is signed as 'NE 43rd Ave'; 3 is signed as 'NE 58th Ave'. Neither ramps go past their terminal points with NE Halsey St or NE Glisan St, respectively; both ramps are signed as NE 43rd Ave and NE 58th Ave.
Proposal: Name the offramp of Exit 2 from the north end of the bridge over the rail tracks to Halsey St as NE 43rd Ave, and name both the off- and onramps of Exit 3 from where they cross where NE Hoyt St would be south to Glisan St as NE 58th Ave to match street blades at the end of the ramps.Returning the discussion to WA 500 and whether it should be a trunk or motorway: Per correspondence with WSDOT, WA 500 between I-5 and WA 503/Fourth Plain Blvd is under long range plans to be fully grade separated.
"Your recent inquiry about long term plans on SR 500 has been forwarded to me for response.
As you are aware, WSDOT has been replacing the signalized intersections along this corridor for many years. The most recent project, which was funded by the legislature out of the Transportation Partnership Account (TPA) and completed in the fall of 2012, constructed the interchange at St. John's Blvd.
Replacing the signalized intersections at 42nd Ave. and 54th Ave. are identified as high priorities to improve traffic flow and safety. At this time, however, there is no funding identified for design or construction so a timetable is not available. WSDOT will continue to monitor the corridor, including these two intersections, and will look for low cost operational improvements as conditions and funding deem appropriate.
Thank you for taking the time to contact WSDOT.
Brian McMullen
WSDOT SW Region Program and Services Manager"Furthermore, using "500 would be a poor fit for motorway as, out of 9 junctions, 3 or 4 of them are at-grade" as criteria opens a large quality assurance problem with the high number of short motorways across the country, including many short interstates. These include US 30 between NW Nicolai and I-405 (one interchange, NW 23rd and Vaughn), WA 432 (4 interchanges and an at-grade railroad crossing), WA 303 (3 interchanges, with a non-free flow interchange at WA 3), CA 160 in Sacramento, CA 132 between I-580 and I-5, CA 204 in Bakersfield, CA 138 at I-5, both segments of CA 90, particularly the eastern one, CA 330 in Highland, and, for interstates: I-705 in Tacoma (with WA 7 as an extension), I-105 in Eugene (and OR 126 in Springfield), I-110 in El Paso, I-535/US 53 in Duluth/Superior, and so on.
Secondly, not counting WA 503/Fourth Plain (the freeway's eastern terminus), there are only two at grade intersections (42nd and 54th). I argue that using a rubric of an interchange per freeway length to determine whether it should be designated as a motorway or trunk on the map vs how it functions on the ground is overly pedantic. Having driven WA 500 several times, it's clear that the route is meant to function as a freeway with the two unbuilt interchanges forcing the intervening segment as an expressway. I believe that from I-5 to 42nd Ave, and from 54th Ave to WA 503/Fourth Plain, WA 500 should be marked as a motorway, not trunk, and the segment between 42nd and 54th, until WSDOT can finance and complete the interchanges, should be trunk, as it's currently marked. Otherwise, the many short freeways, including the under construction Newberg-Dundee Bypass and Sunrise Corridor, would have to be reexamined to ensure mapping standards are upheld, despite their function in the field. -
Comment from Baloo Uriza
WA 500 is pretty similar in it's present design and function to Milwaukie Expressway OR 223 and Mount Hood Highway US 26 where it's dual carriage way, or really take a grab at almost any midwestern dual carriageway trunk. Only real difference is WA 500 is in an urban setting. People don't expect at grade junctions on a motorway. Try highway=trunk, proposed=motorway until WSDOT actually upgrades it.
Re: Newberg-Dundee Bypass and the Sunrise Corridor...unless something has changed in the last 3 years, thee would certainly be trunks. As would be the segment of OR 22 I see someone's retagged as motorway for literally one block between Ellendale Road and Greenwood Road in Rickreall.
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Comment from Baloo Uriza
Basically, the distinction is anything that you're likely to find in the Interstate Freeway System is a motorway. If there's any substantial deviation from that (lack of median, at-grade intersections, not freeway-like speed limits and similar totally outside the character of a freeway things) on a road that otherwise functions as a freeway, then that would make it a trunk (aka, a surface expressway in ODOT/WSDOT parlance, even if there are some fully grade seperated interchanges and medians, with a high speed limit).
I'm noticing significant priority creep in rural Oregon in general; most of the state roads really don't rise past secondary in nature (especially the windier and/or more rural ones like any of the three-digit ones in the coast range, 66 and 34). It's kind of silly to suggest that WA 500 is of the same character as I 84, or that OR 411, 180 and 229 are on the same level as US 20 in function, both in theory and practice.
- Comment from Peter Dobratz
- WA 500 (356632945), v1
- WA 500 (356632946), v1
- WA 500 (356632947), v1
- WA 500 (356632948), v1
- WA 500 (356632949), v1
- WA 500 (356632950), v1
- WA 500 (356632952), v1
- 356632953, v1
- 356632954, v1
- 356632955, v1
- WA 500 (356632956), v1
- WA 500 (356632957), v1
- WA 500 (356632958), v1
- WA 500 (356632959), v1
- 356632960, v1
- 356632961, v1
- 356632962, v1
- WA 500 (356632964), v1
- WA 500 (356632965), v1
- WA 500 (356632966), v1
Relations (7)
- Bus 190: Marquam Hill => Vancouver (4648295), v5
- 500 (3215403), v7
- Bus 190: Vancouver => Marquam Hill (4648296), v4
- 2029891, v2
- 2029888, v2
- 1622591, v3
- 1622554, v2
Nodes (2)
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