Changeset: 44545610
Tracing missing buildings in Gatineau
Closed by LogicalViolinist
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (11223 en) |
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source | Bing; Mapbox |
Discussion
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Comment from woodpeck
Dear user LogicalViolinist. I have reverted an earlier import of yours because it was not sufficiently discussed. Now you claim to be "tracing missing buildings" from sources "Bing; Mapbox". I can say with 100% certainty that for example builidng https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/460776384 which you added in this changeset cannot have been traced from either of these sources (much to little detail). Do you have a much better imagery source than these? If so, please share. Or is this an accidental import that you have forgotten to discuss and document?
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
This is most definitely not an import, I'm currently on mobile and will get back to you. This addition done by hand via mapbox, bing and local survey of the area. I have no desire to import data anymore as it will just get reverted if not passed through the proper channels. I'm currently tracing buildings in gatineau while waiting for the city of Ottawa to get approved. If you dont believe I've been tracing buildings in gatineau for a while now, but stopped because I felt like doing other tasks. https://twitter.com/jamesExiledLedg/status/727534863717437441
If you revert this, this just proves what is written in my profile
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
I've also been using ortho photos that are compatible with OSM tracing from the city of ottawa and carleton university(carleton you need to be a student to access the data, sorry)
http://data.ottawa.ca/dataset/aerial-photographs
http://carleton-u.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicInformation/index.html?appid=a9602c9a15fd4db898c7b8a264442038 -
Comment from LogicalViolinist
I've learned from past events, its not worth importing. I've even reported imports to the DWG recently. I decide to do something manually and by the books and get threated with a revert. This is pardon my language bullshit.
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Comment from woodpeck
Right, so you're saying you have accidentally left out the correct source tag for the imagery you've been using, and that nobody can double-check your statement unless they're students. May I respectfully ask you to be more careful in specifying exactly which imagery you are tracing from in the future? I suspect some of the imagery may be under Canadian OGL-style licenses which, if true, would *require* that you attribute them as the source, and failure to do so could be interpreted as a violation of their imagery license.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
I'm sorry, the source field doesnt allow for long ass urls(character cap in JOSM) I will specify my proper sources in future changesets. The only reason you cant access the imagery from CarletonUniversity is because it's in their library that their GIS deparment conducted in 2014(20cm ortho) anyone from carleton university can review the additions. I'm sorry my changeset is only reserved to local mappers and local knowledge.
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Comment from woodpeck
Well it doesn't say you need to specify an URL in the source tag. But the source tag is there for a reason. You specified a source tag that was obviously wrong, to anyone who cared to look; not even a local person with local knowledge would have known where to look had they wanted to verify what you added. Proper source tags help to avoid misunderstandings.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Would saying CarletonU ortho(2014) and City of Ottawa ortho be sufficient?
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
I've looked on Bing and although it's offset(all imagery in Aylmer is, which only local knowledge would know) You can still see the details (though a bit pixelated) you can still trace from it with a good decerning(from bad imagery) eye
http://imgur.com/a/FO5dB -
Comment from DevonF
That's really awesome that aerial imagery is published under their opendata licence. Do you know if anyones converted it to a tile map on a public server? It'd be nice to add it JOSM
Also curious, would you mind posting a screenshot of the imagery you used to trace https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/460776119 ?
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Unfortunately DevonF I cannot as although carleton University allows creating derivative works and tracing from their aerial imagery, they do not allow to copy/redistribute it(only for students/faculty at Carleton university), doing so may be punishable by revocation of access to the imagery.
So if we are to follow the rules, yes I mind posting a screenshot of Carleton's dataset as it may result in the termination of my access.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Also DevonF, if a user cant add 1000ish buildings without being the spanish inquisition, osm will fall behind everyone. It's probably why digital globe and a relief effort have forked OSM and started contributing to their own fork and not OSM, because small time mappers waste their time.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Don't believe me? https://www.nga.mil/MediaRoom/PressReleases/Pages/2015-16.aspx
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Comment from DevonF
I agree nobody likes it when people are breathing down your neck and it's a waste of time checking every edit. However you have attracted some attention to yourself by some less-orthodox editing practices. But hopefully you'll be able to regain peoples trust. There are good reasons why I care about how large edits are carried out and where the data comes from such as avoiding mass errors and legal fees. It would be quite easy for a organization to check if any of their data has been imported. If your editing practices are acceptable, then I am totally behind the work you are doing and really appreciate it. For example I like that most of the bus stops have been mapped around Ottawa, a good step towards mapping the transit system.
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Comment from DevonF
After reading http://lifehacker.com/193343/ask-the-law-geek--is-publishing-screenshots-fair-use I'd say it's pretty damn safe to share a screenshot. But it looks like it's the same as what's hosted at http://maps.ottawa.ca. You can access JS slippy maps and WMTS api via http://maps.ottawa.ca/arcgis/rest/services. It'd be nice to know what the licensing is on it, I'd love to use it for OSM. Do you know who to ask? Otherwise I'll try to find someone. Reading http://maps.ottawa.ca/geoottawa/help/en/FAQ.htm suggests that at least the 2005 air photo dataset is under opendata 2.0.
But looking at the air photos from maps.ottawa.ca throughout the years, it's still puzzling as to how you managed to end up with those footprints. That one way is of a completely different shape of house. -
Comment from DevonF
That's really awesome about https://github.com/ngageoint/hootenanny. There are so many powerful tools which I dream about for making mapping much more fun and safe for everyone. I'm not sure where I see it mentioned about forking though. Many one-off contributors are just as important as massive imports. I think it's a symbiotic relationship.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
I'm not using ottawa'ortho I know its from 2005. Im using the 2014 from carleton u that their gis department took(2014) http://carleton-u.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicInformation/index.html?appid=a9602c9a15fd4db898c7b8a264442038
As I am taking classes there, I have access to it. -
Comment from LogicalViolinist
Here's a ss of that building, now if you dont mind, i'll return to tracing.
http://imgur.com/a/pzdNL -
Comment from DevonF
The CU and Ottawa datasets are the same for 2014 judging by your screenshot. Here's a side-by-side of the house you added and the 2014 imagery http://imgur.com/a/pQZwP. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a house somewhere else with an incorrect footprint matching this house. I think this strongly reinforces the importance of the import guidelines.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Devon quit wasting my time. maybe learn some HOT mapping or learn some building tracing, I'm not here to hold your hand.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
This is from bing: http://imgur.com/a/9zU2K I may have missed some of the building, but i'm trying to trace quickly. I admit that the OttawaCarleton imagery is different, but I used a combination of Mapbox,Bing, OttawaOrtho and Carleton.
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Comment from DenisCarriere
Devon, your numerous comments in Canada are becoming very annoying to many of the "power" mappers. Just because you like to use iD & OSMAnd to map 1-2 features at the time. Some users are using JOSM to map multiple hundreds of buildings at a time.
You should spend your time doing more productive things instead of investigating every possible edit in Canada.
Your "Casual Mapper" account status is not impressing anyone here, you should focus on mapping instead of commenting on every changeset.
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Comment from woodpeck
Denis, you should be ashamed at trying to pull rank at someone whose comments you don't like. Stick to the facts.
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Comment from woodpeck
LogicalViolinist, there is no way anyone would trace the building in http://imgur.com/a/9zU2K from the imagery in that picture. Neither Bing nor Mapbox nor whatever is in that picture has the detail to trace that outline. Not even a combination of all of them. -- And the only thing you have to say in your defense is "stop wasting my time" and then Denis comes in and tries to silence criticism by pointing to his superior edit numbers? What is going on here?
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Hi woodpeck, as you may know Denis and I know eachother in real life and are local mappers to the Gatineau/Ottawa valley. Is it surprising that I may have linked him my changeset via chat? No? Ok.
http://imgur.com/a/dRNnD
See how the white pixels follow the thing I traced? Well I followed the pixels! If you want me to fix the back portion of the house I can, but I don't want to be accused of trying to cover it up. -
Comment from LogicalViolinist
http://imgur.com/a/3BmD5
The top I followed the pixels again. -
Comment from LogicalViolinist
Not sure why so much scrutiny is going into one building when some people would just draw a rectangle over it and call it a day. Would they be brought in a microscope analysis of what they did and did not do? Nope. If you want me to fix the back of the house I'll gladly do it, but don't accuse me of importing data, when I have learned my lesson from the Ottawa Import(which I'm trying to have it through the proper channels: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-December/007569.html)
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Comment from scruss
Sorry, but it doesn't look as if you can use the Carleton data to trace from: https://library.carleton.ca/sites/default/files/find/gis/DataUseAgreement.pdf
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Thay seems to be talking about the imagery directly and not derivative work scruss
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Comment from scruss
Are your OSM contributions "for the exclusive purposes of teaching or academic research" at Carleton? If not, you can't use the data here, and you've signed something to say you won't when you started your course. Derivative works retain rights too: that's why we can't copy from Google Maps.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
I'll start working on reverting the changesets that used this imagery then.
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Comment from LogicalViolinist
Started the revert process
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Comment from osmcanada_fix
This changeset has been reverted fully or in part by changeset 44622688 where the changeset comment is: Reverted traced buildings due to imagery source
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