Changeset: 45179522
Updates to roads with vehicular access
Closed by andyfrizzle
Tags
created_by | iD 2.0.2 |
---|---|
host | http://www.openstreetmap.org/id |
imagery_used | Bing aerial imagery |
locale | en-GB |
Discussion
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Comment from BCNorwich
Hello There, Just wanted to point out that the way "highway=unclassified
ref=U3064" (south section) that you've added duplicates the ways that are already mapped on that route. The duplication of highways seriously disrupts any attempt by software to route over these ways.
At the river you've added a river on-top of U3064, duplication, river over river? Is it supposed to be a ford or a bridge maybe? Again it disrupts routeing along the way.
Regards -
Comment from andyfrizzle
BCNorwich, Thanks for the feedback. I've reviewed and hopefully correctly amended the highways.
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Comment from trigpoint
Hi Andy, I have a few concerns about these edits.
You have changed this way from a track to unclassified and included the surface=unpaved, in the UK it is reasonable to expect an unclassified road to be surfaced, I believe that unless it has been surfaced it should have been left as a track.
What is the source of U3064? These are internal references for the local council and are never signed. As such they should be put into the official_ref tag to avoid giving confusing information to non-specialist map users.
Cheers Phil -
Comment from andyfrizzle
trigpoint,
I dont want to start an argument of any sort, but it was my understanding that contributors to the OSM project should make their contributions as accurate as possible, and that has been my intention, based on facts.
The road, edited by myself, is an unclassified road, lawfully usable by all traffic.
Your assumption that an unclassified road should be surfaced is incorrect, there being hundreds of (if not more) such unsurfaced unclassified roads in England and Wales.
If there is an established and authoritative documented convention that unsurfaced unclassified roads in England and Wales should be marked as tracks I would be grateful for a link to that information.
I believe every highway authority in England and Wales has an obligation to catalogue its Rights of Way, the local highway authority for this area has given the road the designation U3064.
The respective local highway authority provides the reference for the C and U classification of roads. I have been previously advised/requested that this local road reference should be placed in the 'ref' tag, as I have done with this edit.
I consider the accuracy of the record/edit the most important factor at this time. -
Comment from SK53
This does indeed appear to be classified as an unclassified road by the county council. There will always be edge cases where the rules-of-thumb fall down, and this is one of them. I don't believe that it should be mapped as such on OSM: highway=track is much more appropriate. A couple of important principles apply: "of least surprise" and duck tagging (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Duck_tagging). In general the vast majority of unclassified roads in UK will be paved, and this will be the expectation of users of the maps. Someone ending up using this data finding they are on a track with an unsigned ford is likely to be rather disgruntled. A check on OS maps show this is marked with green blobs showing that OSGB have taken a similar tack. A useful rule of thumb when checking how to tag roads of this nature is to check against the OS StreetView layer: in general public roads are shown in white with a casing; tracks, service roads etc., as uncased grey lines. I would therefore recommend: a) return the tagging to highway=track; b) change the ref to admin_ref which is the agreed standard in the UK for this type of internal administrative reference (talk-gb ad nauseum); c) add access=yes, motor_vehicle=yes (& other access tags); d) possibly add a designation tag with value public_highway. There are a number of similar tracks in rural Leicestershire, and I can recall one in West Sussex too (but trying to drive any kind of vehicle along it would be madness). All are in general mapped as tracks.
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Comment from Richard
highway=unclassified, surface=unpaved is ok but slightly unidiomatic for UK mapping. There's nothing wrong with it per se - there are lots of dirt roads in the States mapped that way, for example - but it's slightly unexpected in a UK context where highway=unclassified isn't used by custom for such a road. I wouldn't die on a hill for it either way.
trigpoint's right with the ref though - this should go into official_ref or similar. Otherwise you get the situation where user-facing maps and routing apps tell people to "turn left onto the U3064" to which the obvious answer is "the what?!". It's not really practical to expect every single user-facing app to build in a long list of exceptions for each country (e.g. "never announce C or U refs in the UK").
In general, don't assume a 1:1 mapping between OSM terminology and UK legal terminology - the words are often similar but OSM terms have their own meaning through custom. "ref" doesn't mean "any road number". "unclassified" doesn't mean "any unclassified road". OSM doesn't really do "established and authoritative documented" - we're not that kind of project :) - but this has been hashed out on the talk-gb list several times over the years if you're interested.
Anyway, trivialities aside, thanks for your mapping - great to see your contributions.
cheers
Richard -
Comment from SK53
Just thought I'd add links to the similar highways which I mentioned earlier:
Tillington, West Sussex: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/273951783
Two in Marefield, Leics:
Red Lodge Road: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/198802841
Blackspinney Lane: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/195159159I will try & document all this on the wiki because I remember my own puzzlement about these three on coming across them 2 years ago.
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Comment from andyfrizzle
Thanks for the further input, I have no problems making the amendments as suggested prior. Northumberland has a vast network of unsurfaced unclassified roads with vastly varying roads surfaces. I would not be surprised is there are more than a hundred in this county alone. I will try and work through my previous contributions and amend them accordingly. An addition to the wiki clarifying these issues will be of great benefit to other contributors.
,
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Comment from SK53
Thanks Andy. I've added this to the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Tagging_Guidelines#Unpaved_Country_Roads. It's largely based on the discussion here, but I should also add some examples from Northumberland too. I think pressure of use in SE England, Peak District etc has largely led to the status of such roads being changed. Two I know in Berkshire were v. rapidly downgraded to Restricted Byways shortly after they appeared on satnavs and became rat runs.
Ways (1)
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