Changeset: 46795276
Additions in St Anns, Nottingham NG3, Notts, UK (wasnidge walk 2)
Closed by alexkemp
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (11715 en_GB) |
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source | survey; Bing |
Discussion
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Comment from SK53
Hi Alex,
You seem to have terraced a number of buildings in St Anns (e.g., Kelvedon Gardens) which are more complex, typically with 3 apartments in each section accessed by doors on ground & first floor. Ideally these need to be mapped with the address nodes on the doors, which will require fiddly things with access bridges, balconies & steps. With the places terraced they look (accurately) too thin for convenient living. I'd rather we wait and get it completely right than have to change from all these terraces.
Jerry
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Comment from alexkemp
Hello Jerry
Each apartment occupies 2 floors of a 3-floor apartment, which is more complex than you describe & difficult to map within OSM constraints ( I do not know of any current 3D representation). I've chosen a kludge which allows them to be accurately represented on the map by place. Fortunately, people live within RL rather than a map. I would rather map these dwellings as accurately as is currently possible rather than wait for perfection. -
Comment from SK53
The current, entirely achievable, method for complex blacks like these is, as I said, to map the addresses on the doors. Also in general it's usually better to try & capture the actual situation : a few people working out how to do it is how OSM advances. The problem with these being terraced is that it makes it rather harder to change them with a more accurate representation.
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Comment from alexkemp
You are correct about how-to map apartment blocks (other colours than black are also available) & that is exactly how I map such many-floor buildings. These 3-level 1970s terraced buildings in St Anns are a halfway-house between apartments & 'normal' terraces. You are correct that the map representation is narrower than their actual footprint in RL; that is because this is a map and not RL (as one good example, the actual buildings are many metres wide whilst the map is just a few millimetres). No-one that lives within these terraces has yet complained.
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Comment from SK53
A couple of points: it's a database not a map; we're trying to represent RL reasonably accurately, not keep residents in place X happy (or we'd have very different boundaries in many places in the world).
The problem with this as a halfway house representation is that the mapped thinness of the residences is obviously unlikely & inaccurate.
We can do better.
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Comment from alexkemp
> We can do better.
I disagree. Mapping these terraces as an apartment block does NOT give an accurate display of the thickness of those flats. But that is not actually the point, is it? What it all boils down to is: I'm not doing it the way that you want. Well, tough. It seems to me to be the best way to map these particular buildings. The way that you suggest to use is wrong from my point of view. Now please: why not spend your time mapping rather than criticising *my* mapping? -
Comment from SK53
The whole reason I'm looking at this is because I want to map other places in St Anns which have similar layout. I may have taken notes & photos last year of Kelvedon Gardens because I was searching for an example with the addresses mapped on the doors.
OSM is fundamentally a collaborative project and it works at its best when we collectively use a common style of mapping things. Yes we can have different points of view, but they should are best substantiated by widespread practice in OSM: not "this is my way tough".
In the main it's more important that things get mapped as long as there's enough info to make the mapping more elaborate over time. For instance the info you've added for Jedburgh Close is extremely useful for understanding how these buildings are laid out internally, with which levels each house number is located on : in fact if you provided this on others I could live with it as it's clearly more informative than what I can achieve not living in the area.
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Comment from alexkemp
> it's clearly more informative than what I can achieve not living in the area
I do not live in the area either, Jerry. Just like you, I have to travel there to map it. The difference, perhaps, is that I knock on the doors & talk to the folks that live in those terraces, rather than stand back & view them through the end of a telephoto lens. I then use the information that I obtain to map it in the best fashion that seems to apply, having referred first to the Wiki, & so on. Those terraces for which info is obtained I store within the map. Other, similar terraces where no-one answers the door have less info.> OSM is fundamentally a collaborative project and it works at its best when we collectively use a common style of mapping things
So how come you spend your time accusing me of not doing things the way that *you* do it? If you actually believed your own words, then you would *ask* why I had mapped it that way, so that we can collaborate together to find the best way to map these terraces. Instead, you act with the attitude that *you* know how best to map these terraces & I do not. Such an attitude is high-handed & 'superior' (quote-marks as not necessarily accurate) & bound to cause aggravation & conflict. You need to fix this attitude, Jerry, as it rejects newcomers & is detrimental to the project as a whole.> (different points of view) are best substantiated by widespread practice in OSM
The entire point is that there is NOT any “widespread practice” for these particular terraces. There is “widespread practice” for how-to map terraces. There is “widespread practice” for how-to map apartment blocks. There is zero practice for how-to map 2-level apartments built within lengths of 3-level terraces.It is perfectly reasonable for you to point out that the flats appear rather narrow on the map. It is perfectly unreasonable for you to stomp all over what I've done, telling me that it is all wrong and should be mapped 'ideally this way' as if you are the authority on what is right. You are not the authority; there is zero established practice in mapping these particular buildings. Please start behaving like a collaborator rather than a foreman. It is more accurate to your position & you will get better results from those that you deal with, and particularly when dealing with crusty old men like me.
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