Changeset: 49970820
The official name is Lachin
Closed by Vugar Seidov
Tags
build | 2.5-7-gbd74430 |
---|---|
created_by | Potlatch 2 |
version | 2.5 |
Discussion
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Comment from SomeoneElse
Hello Vugar Seidov, and welcome to OpenStreetMap!
You've changed a number of names here, with a changeset comment of "The official name is Lachin".
In this changeset you have changed a number of language-specific names for places to the same value. Language-specific names are there to allow users of different languages to make maps in their own language - your change has prevented those people from doing so.
Adding a place value of "Armenia-occupied region of Azerbaijan" just looks like a political statement, and OSM is not the place for that. For details on the OSMF's policy on disputed territories, see http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf . If you think a name is incorrect please provide some evidence that the people who actually live there use the name that you think should be used.
Best Regards,
Andy Townsend, on behalf of OpenStreetMap's Data Working Group. -
Comment from Vugar Seidov
Dear Andy,
The name of the town is Lachin, not Berdzor. All the legal residents have been expelled due to the war, but they are considered IDPs with the right to return home. They are the only legal residents, and they call the town Lachin. Period!
Those very few who currently and de-facto live there are illegal residents settled there by the neighboring country, Armenia. They will have to vacate the captured houses after the IDPs, the legal residents, return home. And Berdzor is the name invented by them, not by the legal residents.
Therefore, the official name is not Berdzor, but Lachin.
You cannot capture the town, expel tens of thousands of residents, then bring a dozen of incomers from Syria and Lebanon, settle them there, change the name and then claim that "this is how the people who actually live here, call the town". It is illegal.
Berdzor is the name given by the residents whose settlement was recognized by the international community to be illegitimate. Therefore,the very fact of arbitrary renaming of the town from Lachin to Berdzor is illegitimate, even despite there are a couple of families living there and calling it "Berdzor". Again, they will have to leave the captured houses after the IDPs return home.Same goes to all the changes I have made. The renaming of towns following ethnic cleansing and trying to move people there from elsewhere does not make the name-change legitimate.
Besides, if you consider the phrase "occupied by Armenia" to be politicized, then just the same politicized is the notion of "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" which implies legitimization of a unilateral secession, denied international recognition. Isn't the name political? Of course, it is. Then for the sake of avoiding any politicization and double standards, please erase the notion of "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" from the map as well, and keep it the way the international community considers it in all the resolutions and international instruments: Nagorno-Karabakh Region of Azerbaijan.
Thank you
Vugar -
Comment from Vugar Seidov
Just another example to help you understand the situation. You know about the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. There was a town (and still is) called Famagusta. Before the invasion, it is entirely Greek-Cypriot. No Turk-Cypriots lived there. During the invasion, Turkish army entered the town and ordered all the residents to leave within 2 days. Now it is a goast-city for the last more than 40 years. No one lives there, yet the town is still called Famgusta.
Now, imagine that Turks begin settling their follow ethnic kins in the abandoned houses of the former Greek-Cypriot residents, and they, for their own convenience, decide to give a new name to the town. Will you erase the name of Famagusta from the openstreetmap and change it to some Turkish name only because there are a dozen of Turkish families who actually and de-facto live and call it somehow else? Of course, you will not.
Then why is this double standard in Nagorno Karabakh? You can see that I didn't touch any town which used to be and still is predominantly Armenian-populated. But all the Azeri towns with the residents living in exile as IDPs are waiting for their return home, and those names must not be changed to berdzors and karvachars, because after the imminent return, the legal residents will again call the towns their official names. -
Comment from SomeoneElse
I refer you again to http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf - speficially "The existence of a name, boundary location or description in the OpenStreetMap
database does NOT imply that that it is legally correct in any jurisdiction." and "The OpenStreetMap community operates under the 'on the ground' principle, recording what is actually currently used in a particular area".
It doesn't matter what the "official" name of a town was or is in any jurisdiction, and we don't aim to support any one side in any dispute; merely reflect what name the people currently there use.
Note that there is not just one OSM map and you are free to create maps in whatever language you like. If you look back at the history you'll notice that I added Laçin as a name:az in http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46057996 as someone had previously removed it, precisely so that maps in all relevant languages can be created.
Best Regards,
Andy -
Comment from Vugar Seidov
Dear Andy,
I got your point. Then would you mind to remove the name Artsvashen and change it to Bashkend, as NO ONE living on the ground in that village uses the former name?
I hope, this will meet your requirements.Regards,
Vugar -
Comment from SomeoneElse
I'm no expert on the situation here, but assuming you're talking about the area around https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2597146 then on my reading of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsvashen that would make some sort of sense. The relation has 4 names in the "name" field, the node https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2032851608/history you've just changed, and there's also a named village area https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/360002840 .
Please do add back name:hy to https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2032851608/history though.
Best Regards,
Andy
Nodes (12)
- 4946057199, v1
- Lachin (234298960), v33
- Khojaly Airport (1042089747), v11
- Khojaly (1966237356), v19
- Shusha (210333762), v62
- Khankendi (4027452036), v24
- Dağlıq Qarabağ (1696853468), v65
- Urmia (1355052442), v8
- Xudavəng (1334755393), v8
- Quzeyçirkin (1359848400), v4
- Kelbajar (3192608052), v12
- Ağcakənd (1342620552), v7
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