Changeset: 51210935
Removed a number of clearly wildcamp sites with no additional information and tags warning about the status, but just tourism=camp_site.
Closed by mboeringa
Tags
created_by | iD 2.3.2 |
---|---|
host | https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit |
imagery_used | Bing aerial imagery |
locale | nl |
Discussion
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Comment from dikkeknodel
Hi mboeringa,
I agree that it should be marked that these are wild camping spots. However, in the mountains it can be pretty helpful if wild camping sites are marked, since flat surfaces may be scarce. Removing them seems a bit hasty in my opinion.
camp_type=wildcamp and a description tag with the amount of tents that fit at the location would for example improve the detail in my opinion.
Why would you just plainly remove these sites instead of start a discussion first? The changeset in which these sites were introduced (https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42344084) does not include any comments asking for these details. You could have requested user nurdafur for these details and enrich the map instead of depriving it of this information completely.
I suggest we do this and put them back when the details are available. What are your thoughts?
Cheers,
dikkeknodel -
Comment from dikkeknodel
I meant this changeset
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42341070 -
Comment from mboeringa
Hi dikkeknodel,
A couple of thoughts here:
- The tagging of camp sites is still mildly in flux. I can't remember having seen a "camp_type=wildcamp" on the pages when I last checked them, sometime before this edit, but it now seems documented. At the time of this edit by me, with no known established tagging for marking out wildcamps, the best course of action seemed to remove them.
- I do think that tagging wildcamps without any sign, nor even note, that they are wildcamps, is kind of lazy and potentially dangerous. People may expect services (e.g. drinking water) that are not available. This is also a bit worrying coming from someone who actually must be an experienced hiker / climber to even know about, and have used, such a place to start tagging it on OSM. A regular ignorant tourist would not know about such a place at all.
- Also in this respect, while I understand the use of a subtag like "camp_type=x" is logical and much used in OSM, I do have some doubt in the case of wildcamps. Wildcamps are so totally different from any regular 'established/informal' camp site, that a separate tag might have been a better choice, e.g. tourism=wildcamp.
- This is especially so because any website / rendering not knowing about or checking the subtag "camp_type=x", may inadvertently show this on a map targeted at regular tourists without any climbing / hiking experience. This could lead to unpleasant situations and at the very least confusion.Anyway, it is OSM, so if you want to revert this,you can do it. But as you suggested, I would definetely tag them as "camp_type=wildcamp". Lastly, it might be good to have the actual locations double-checked locally before reverting this. I am definitely not in a position to do that, but don't know your location, or if you have contacts with local mappers and hikers that know the locations and paths leading to them. I do have some doubts about re-adding these without a double check if the locations are actually sound.
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Comment from dikkeknodel
Hi mboeringa,
I think your concerns are valid, although the same user also tagged drinking water sources in the immediate surrounding area.
The wild_camping tagging is introduced on the Tag:tourism=camp_site wiki page at 19-04-2017, so it is fairly new. I did not know it until I found similar camp_sites in another changeset that were actually having 4 stars assigned :-S:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/34252985
By commenting that changeset I reached out to the user actually visiting the area and we worked together to enrich the map.
Off course we are not tagging for the renderer, which naturally lags in implemented new tagging. This is also where the personal responsibility of the user of the data comes in. Having a map does not take away personal responsibilities of people going into the mountains.
Hence I still doubt the action you took. A comment in the changeset introducing these camp sites would have quickly resolved these issues. It would have actually enriched the data, while now you more or less bluntly removed it.
By coincidence I've met user nurdarfur in person, this user mainly maps while on the go (which is also described in his OSM profile for anybody to read) and which is hinted to because Vespucci is mainly used. So I'm 99% sure this was personally surveyed before entered (this is also mentioned as source in the changeset). Additionally, replies from nurdafur are typically very quick, but if you don't try to send a comment, you won't get a reply either.
As an avid mountain hiker and wild camper, I am very welcoming to information about wild camping sites, hence the persistence :-).
So my main point is that it was premature to just remove these sites from the armchair without discussion with the mapper introducing the POIs or survey on location.
I will contact nurdafur and then revert and enrich the data.
Cheers,
dikkeknodel -
Comment from mboeringa
Hi dikkeknodel,
Thanks for the detailed reply that explains more about the situation and background of these edits. I am fine if you revert this and enrich the data using the wildcamp tagging.
Cheers, Marco
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Comment from nurdafur
Hallo Marco and dikkeknodel
I map only places far away from any road or track and with drinking water close by as Campsites. As it seems, I forgot to set a tag which makes them clear to be non official camp-sites e.g. bivac.
cheers
Urs -
Comment from dikkeknodel
The revert:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59012299
The enrichment:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59012400
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