Changeset: 53262566
networks for U-Bahn and S-Bahn
Closed by Zverik
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (13025 ru) |
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Discussion
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Comment from Nakaner
Hi Zverik,
your use of network=* is wrong. network=* is used to tag which Verkehrsverbund a route relation belongs to. There is no "Nuremberg S-Bahn" Verkehrsverbund, it is called "Verkehrsverbund Großraum Nürnberg". Could you please fix this?
Btw, light_rail is wrong for S-Bahn Nuremberg.
Best regards
Michael
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Comment from Zverik
Okay, I see U-Bahn and S-Bahn in relation names. Why are they not networks? Naming a "transport and tariff network" with a "network" in the title does not automatically make it a network in OSM terms, just like naming a cafe "restaurant" does not make it a restaurant, and unclassified highways are not really unclassified in many countries. VGN joins many networks: R-Bahn, S-Bahn, U-Bahn, trams and buses. To me they definitely look different. Judging by a translation of the wiki page, it is more of a "parent operator" to operators of these networks, than a network itself.
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Comment from Zverik
Also, why light_rail is wrong for S-Bahn? It is definitely not a subway, and since it has short intervals, not a common train.
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Comment from Nakaner
Hi Ilya,
it is common mapping practice in Germany to use network=* for the Verkehrsverbund or Verkehrsverbünde (plural if necessary) instead of using relations of type=network to tie all stops, platforms and routes together. And yes, it is (unfortunately) common mapping practice to abuse the name tag of route relations for descriptions.
A Verkehrsverbund is usually not the operator of a service. It is a distinct company which is either owned by the companies operating the services or owned by the local municipailties or Kreise.
Please keep accept this.
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The following paragraphs are an incomplete introduction into public transport in Germany. An incomplete and simplified TL;DR can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5hkR-IAnwQ
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Most S-Bahn systems have been changed to route=train in the last three years. Only Nuremberg S-Bahn was forgotten.
"S-Bahn" is just a brand used by Deutsche Bahn and other companies for trains which usually stops at every station/halt and usually stops very often. You cannot conclude from the usage of the brand to a route=* or railway=* value. Instead, you have to inspect the infrastructure and which specific law its operations are based on (BOStrab vs. EBO vs. ESBO).
railway/route=light_rail should be usually applied to better trams which are faster and have a dedicated right of way (don't share space with cars). This applies to the tram/light rail systems of Stuttgart ("Stadtbahn"), Frankfurt am Main ("U-Bahn"), Köln/Bonn ("Stadtbahn"/"U-Bahn"), Düsseldorf (only high floor)/Neuss (only high floor)/Duisburg, Mülheim an der Ruhr (only normal guage)/Essen (only normal gauge), Bochum (only normal gauge), Dortmund.
Most S-Bahn systems are just trains with more doors than usual and use normal train tracks. They only have separated tracks near the city centre and use the normal 15 kV 16.7 Hz overhead lines. This applies to all S-Bahns except the S-Bahn Berlin and Hamburg which are fed with DC power from a third rail except the Hamburg S 3 which uses the AC overhead line between Neugraben and Stade. The S 23 (Bonn Hbf–Euskirchen–Bad Münstereifel) uses diesel multiple units. To extend the mess, the Karlsruhe Stadtbahn is a tram-train system which is called Stadtbahn but uses the S-Bahn logo except where it uses the tracks of the Karlsruhe tram and on the tram tracks in Heilbronn.
Most younger S-Bahn networks (Nuremberg S 4, Leipzig/Halle, Magdeburg, Rostock, Rhein/Neckar, Hannover) are no commuter services. Their lines are quite long (e.g. Rhein/Neckar S 1 from Homburg(Saar) to Osterburken needs 3:44; Leipzig/Halle S 4 from Wurzen to Ruhland 2:28) and they run from the city centres to the very rural areas outside the cities. The use of "S-Bahn" for their services is just marketing. If they did not use the brand "S-Bahn", they would be called Regionalbahn (RB) which is the lowest category for passenger trains.
Now you have read about the normal S-Bahn networks. If you include everything which uses "S-Bahn" in its name, it becomes even more strange. Ortenau-S-Bahn is a network served by small (!) diesel multiple units between Strasbourg, Offenburg (the centre) and Freudenstadt. The Breisgau-S-Bahn serves some very busy branch lines around Freiburg with the same type diesel multiple units as Ortenau-S-Bahn does but Breisgau-S-Bahn will be converted to a electrical S-Bahn in 2018. Regio-S-Bahn Bremen is a network of lines around Bremen which is similar to systems of Rostock and Dresden but it is operated by Nordwestbahn and not by a Deutsche Bahn subsidiary. The S-Bahn system of Dresden is operated by DB Regio but they use normal electric locomotives and bilevel rail cars. The same applied to Leipzig/Halle (old version) and Rostock. These three systems started operation before 1990.
I avoided to mention the narrow-gauge railway lines which are used by trams in a tram-train like way because that would increase the confusion of the reader.
Best regards
Michael
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Comment from Zverik
Michael, thank you for this extended explanation. I have learnt a lot from it. I agree that light_rail might be unacceptable for Nuremberg. I change these routes type to train, if the local community agrees with it.
As you might know, I've made a metro validator, which runs for the whole planet, including german cities. It filters networks to process by a "network" tag. If it is hard to impossible in Germany to use this tag alone to choose metro (U-Bahn and in a few cities, S-Bahn) routes, what should I use? Should I create a new tag, e.g. network:type=u-bahn etc.?
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Comment from Nakaner
route=* alone does not help (and network is useless). If you also check the first characters of the value of ref=*, you can guess pretty well the type of train. U-Bahn line numbers always starts with a "U", S-Bahn line numbers always start with an "S".
Many private railway companies which operate local trains as a contractor of a German state, don't use the train type abbreviations of Deutsche Bahn (RB, RE, IRE). That's why you have to check the second character, too. If it is a space or a digit, you have S-Bahn or U-Bahn. Otherwise it is the abbreviation of a company, e.g. UBB for "Usedomer Bäderbahn", STB for "Süd-Thüringen-Bahn" or SWGE for "Südwestdeutsche Verkehrs AG".
Some mappers add a space behind the U/S, some not.
Cologne/Bonn Stadtbahn which is partially a U-Bahn but a light rail/tram (and tram-train) outside the city centres, is not prefixed with an U.
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Comment from Zverik
Just reverted the network tag in http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/53639647
Relations (18)
- DB_S-Bahn S1 (77908), v40
- S-Bahn S2 (77962), v39
- S-Bahn S3 (77971), v33
- S-Bahn S2 Altdorf (bei Nürnberg) Bahnhof - Roth Bahnhof (453601), v66
- S-Bahn S3 Nürnberg Hauptbahnhof - Neumarkt (536798), v19
- S-Bahn S3 Neumarkt - Nürnberg Hauptbahnhof (536799), v25
- U-Bahn U1 Fürth Hardhöhe - Nürnberg Langwasser Süd (538906), v67
- U-Bahn U1 Nürnberg Langwasser Süd - Fürth Hardhöhe (538907), v53
- S-Bahn S1 Bamberg - Hartmannshof (539311), v138
- S-Bahn S1 Hartmannshof - Bamberg (539312), v140
- S-Bahn S2 Roth Bahnhof - Altdorf (bei Nürnberg) Bahnhof (544078), v60
- U-Bahn U2 Nürnberg Röthenbach - Nürnberg Flughafen (905096), v46
- U-Bahn U3 Nürnberg Gustav-Adolf-Straße - Nürnberg Nordwestring (905097), v40
- U-Bahn U3 Nürnberg Nordwestring - Nürnberg Gustav-Adolf-Straße (1168225), v37
- U-Bahn U2 Nürnberg Flughafen - Nürnberg Röthenbach (1168226), v40
- U-Bahn U2 (1676043), v5
- U-Bahn U3 (1857497), v6
- U-Bahn U1 (1857639), v7
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