Changeset: 55367616
Reverting malicious edit of names.
Closed by Baloo Uriza
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (13265 Debian en) |
---|
Discussion
-
Comment from baveggies9999
This is not accurate. Please see: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule
and
http://www.pikepass.com
http://www.odot.org/tcomm/agendas14/tc_agenda-20140310-r-special.pdfDespite your legislative link, the highway is clearly referred to in common practice as "Creek Turnpike" and should be noted as such. Please revert.
-
Comment from baveggies9999
The "Liberty Memorial Parkway" designation is clearly an ancillary designation to "Creek Turnpike" and not the primary name of the roadway based on the PDF to which you linked.
All signage still indicates "Creek Turnpike" and ODOT sources indicate that it and the Turnpike Agency still consider that to be the primary name of the roadway. Calling this "Liberty Memorial Parkway" is confusing and misleading for road users and not reflective of reality.
-
Comment from US Highway 266
I personally verified that this road is indeed signed as the "Creek Turnpike". There is a single sign that says "Liberty Parkway" which is clearly a tertiary or even quaternary honorific name for this road. Nowhere is the name "Liberty Memorial Parkway" listed as a name for this road. There is no mention of "Liberty Parkway" or "Liberty Memorial Parkway" on the Oklahoma Department of Transportation website (https://ok.gov/odot) or the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority website (www.pikepass.com). The guideline is "the government with effective and sustained control of the area has an official source of names or an official stance on a naming dispute, then that name is default." The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) is the governmental agency with effective and sustained control of this roadway, and they refer to it exclusively as "Creek Turnpike" or "SH 364".
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
"Liberty Parkway" appears on signage at either end of the route. Additionally, alt_name and the relation are named "Creek Turnpike". These names are both accurate.
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
"Liberty Parkway" appears on signage at either end of the route. Additionally, alt_name and the relation are named "Creek Turnpike". These names are both accurate.
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
Liberty Memorial Parkway was the compromise name after this was brought to the Data Working Group last time, I'd consider Liberty Parkway to be more valid than Liberty Memorial Parkway.
-
Comment from Duke87
Is there an official DWG decision about this online anywhere? I concur with US 266 and baveggies - the road is quite clearly named "Creek Turnpike" on all major signage as well as in general practice. The name "Liberty Parkway" is on only one sign (that I am aware of) - this should be the alt_name, not the other way around.
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
There is signage westbound. It's at https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4884335483 and at https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4884339565 , plus the cited doc in the source notes also supports this.
-
Comment from US Highway 266
The official name of the road is "Creek Turnpike". "Liberty Parkway" is a tertiary name, a nickname if you will. It isn't the main name of the road. I've lived near the turnpike for over a decade and I've never heard anybody call it "Liberty Parkway". Locals always call it "Creek Turnpike". I've never seen any references to a "Liberty Memorial Parkway" anywhere but this site. Could you please provide a cite for "Liberty Memorial Parkway"?
-
Comment from US Highway 266
This picture which was taken by me on September 9, 2014 is of a guide sign on westbound US 64/northbound US 169/eastbound OK 364 which clearly shows the road as "Creek Turnpike". This is not the only sign to refer to it as such.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/watuzi/17423431070/in/dateposted-public/
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
That picture is referencing route numbers and route names, not street level names. You find a similar situation in Oregon, for example, at Mission Street and Santiam Highway in the Salem area or OR 569 Randy Papé Beltline, previously known and alternately signed as The Beltline or Beltline Road. Route signage for OR 569 "Beltline" doesn't stop it from being known as OR 569 "Randy Papé Beltline", other than the Oregon DOT being substantially more consistent about updating signage in a timely manner. Whereas, even with streets that have been long since renamed, it's common for OklaDOT to sign its streets by shield (or transliterating the shield only) to the wayfinding signs, even after updating confirmation signage to be consistent.
This differs from purely honorary signage, which uses brown signs. For example, US 26 in the Portland western suburbs, is Northwest Sunset Highway or just Sunset Highway where it runs through southwest or ambiguous parts of town. There are brown signs indicating honorific naming, and legislation indicating a specifically secondary name, and the route shields are specifically "US 26". In the Liberty Parkway's case, the legislative name is specifically "Liberty Memorial Parkway," the actual signs say "Liberty Parkway" or simply "Turnpike", and the route shields are OK 364 or the OTA route "Creek Turnpike", ie, named instead of numbered, route. OSM is going towards using relations to handle routes, and both the OTA route and the OK 364 route on the section in question are named "Creek Turnpike", as that name undeniably describes the whole route. However, there are constituent roadways with a differing name.
Please note that the route name is not in dispute, and so far, all arguments in this thread for naming the road "Creek Turnpike" are ignoring that the route are what is most commonly referred to. In which, I would direct folks expecting the whole route name to refer to https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7251917, https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4117702, https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1250472 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1250473
The way names _litearlly_ only apply to the ways. I believe US Highway 266, Duke 87 and baveggies9999 are _entirely_ correct for the routes, and if the names differ from "Creek Turnpike", then, yes, go ahead and change those names, but for the actual constituent ways between US 169 and OK 51, that's the Liberty Parkway.
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
That said, I don't envy any of us for dealing with Oklahoma's entirely insane inconsistency in dealing with highway names in general. However, ultimately, getting things named consistently at all levels is something that needs to be handled at the level of "stop (re-)electing people who are in favor of arbitrarily renaming everything" and less at "let's start editing OSM against reality" level. I want to be on your side, but that's not what's on the ground right now.
-
Comment from US Highway 266
The official name of the road is "Creek Turnpike". Until you provide evidence otherwise, OSM should reflect this. Two signs and one PDF file do not prove the name of a road has changed.
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
I'm sorry you can't accept the ground truth as fact, and I'm done trying to point out the difference between a route and a road or how to read a relation.
-
Comment from ToeBee
Paul, first of all, your original changeset comment is not really appropriate. The edit was not malicious. There is a legitimate difference of opinion on the subject. And to be honest I'm having a little trouble seeing it your way. As has been pointed out, every single sign directing drivers to this stretch of road either says "Creek Turnpike" or just "Turnpike":
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=dwgCqidfdOdSkvEtl727ag&focus=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=Bv1jtbro6rgUsR1X60JHqw&focus=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=d_3rM8C8wlSBpKMKHAXTSw&focus=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=Z5vS2VS0-N1zvXSG8seBVw&focus=photoI can't even make out any signs that say Liberty Parkway on them in any Mapillary pictures. I think I spotted the two signs but the font is not big enough to resolve the letters in the images. If someone gets on in the middle of this stretch they will never see those signs and will think "what the hell is Liberty Parkway? OSM is wrong!" I would totally open a note in that situation.
To me, it is much like the "Coach Bill Snyder Highway" around here:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo&pKey=P6iLlIteRwIRgEBCtco9cAIt is basically an honorary title for the road and I would not change the name of the way because of it. I actually haven't mapped this one at all (shame on me) but I would probably do it as a relation with name=Coach Bill Snyder Highway. since it follows 2 or 3 different state/federal highways along its course.
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
I'm still of the opinion between the legislation that renamed it, Creek Turnpike shields being removed in favor of OK 364 shields as they wear out, the signage at either end, this segment did, in fact, get renamed. Current destination:*=* tagging at the ramps indicates directional signage present at each location. loc_name=* is present. The relation for the OTA turnpike and the OklaDOT state highway are present. All the data is there already no matter how you want to interpret it.
This is exactly the situation that happened with a long segment of OR 569 back on March 15, 2010, except in this case, the part of https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/fresxcf is being played by US Highway 266 and his sockpuppet.
-
Comment from cl94
Since when are honorary names the official name of the highway? Should we change the name of the NY Thruway to "Jewish Veterans Memorial Highway" between Exits 10 and 15 because a couple of signs and a state declarations say it is called that? Of course not.
-
Comment from US Highway 266
I'm interpreting it like it is written and as it is on the ground. I don't know how you are interpreting it the way you are. It's quite a leap of logic to say the least.
-
Comment from rickmastfan67
Paul, I honestly wouldn't be calling out others as 'sockpuppet' accounts unless you have 100% proof. It's very unprofessional for 1 thing, and very rude at the minimum. If you want to say it in your head, that's one thing, but don't post in public saying that unless you can back it up with 100% proof. Stuff like that should be left for the Mods/Admins here @ OSM to do, since they would have the IP logs for the edits, something you don't have access to as far as I know.
=====
As for the subject on hand, if the two signs you mention are very small green signs, I'm 99.9% sure it's just a 'Honorary' name for this segment, and not the real name of the highway. Take for example, this 'Rick Cessar Highway' sign ( https://goo.gl/maps/Tyrtcgmr9Wk ) on PA-8 is 100% honorary (no personal pic, but could get one if necessary), as the real name for the road in this area is 'William Flynn Highway' (posted on street blades @ intersections), and it's correctly tagged as such in OSM. From all the evidence people have been posting above, I'm honestly in the belief that the real name of this is indeed 'Creek Turnpike', and not 'Liberty Parkway' as you claim. Do you have any proof that the 'Liberty Parkway' name is on any BGS as of right now, as that's the only way I could personally see you having a leg to stand on in reference for the name tag along the way(s) themselves. Otherwise, the 'Liberty Parkway' name should be in a different tag, like 'name:honorary', IMO. But to be fully honest here Paul, I think you're in a loosing battle. The evidence does seem to be very stacked against ya here. -
Comment from Baloo Uriza
Honorary names are typically on signage distinctive from the rest of the highway names. That's not the case here. Wasn't the case on OR 569, either. But, US 26 has a brown signed section over Sylvan Hill honorarily naming it after some soldier, and still signed as Sunset Highway. Not the case with Randy Papé Beltline, not the case with Liberty Parkway.
If you're interested in the route Creek Turnpike, then take a look at this relation (https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1250474) instead.
-
Comment from US Highway 266
There are NO big green signs with "Liberty Parkway" on them. None. There are several, however, with "Creek Turnpike" on them. If your theory were true, it would be prominently displayed on the overhead signs. As has been noted before, there are only two signs with "Liberty Parkway" on them and NO signs with "Liberty Memorial Parkway" on them. "Liberty Memorial Parkway is only found in a PDF of a bill that was never passed. There is no question that "Creek Turnpike" is the correct name of the road.
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
Your assertion is correct for the relation above, not the road subject to this changeset.
-
Comment from Duke87
Okay it's been a month and no further comments. I count six in favor of "Creek Turnpike" being the primary name and one in favor of "Liberty Parkway". Can we consider there to be a consensus to this effect at this point?
-
Comment from Baloo Uriza
I don't think so. Again, it's still signed as the road being Liberty Parkway and the route as Creek Turnpike.
Timeline for how this was developed is this:
* Highway was built as an unnumbered route, with Creek Turnpike route shields.
* State renames this segment as Liberty Parkway; route name remains Creek Turnpike.
* Broken Arrow builds the Liberty Parkway Trail, named after the highway.
* State assigns the route OK 364, Creek Turnpike shields being phased out.
* Wayfinding signs for the *route* still read Creek Turnpike.
* Name signs for this segment still say Liberty Parkway. -
Comment from US Highway 266
Paul, remember when you claimed that the portion of OK 364 east of the Muskogee Turnpike was "Liberty Parkway" and that there was a sign just south of I-44 identifying it as such? I proved you wrong and you removed it. Remember when you claimed the Creek Turnpike was "Liberty Memorial Parkway" even though that name isn't even a tertiary name of the road? I keep proving you wrong and you keep moving the goalposts. What is it going to take for you to realize that you're wrong and that you're getting out of towners lost? I've provided tons of evidence from many different sources. You have provided two signs (that you don't have pictures of) and the text of a bill that died on the floor. I don't like arguing with you but if you continue to purposely confuse motorists I'm going to do everything I can to make sure the correct name is on the map.
Ways (3)
Welcome to OpenStreetMap!
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
Hosting is supported by Fastly, OSMF corporate members, and other partners.
https://openstreetmap.org/copyright | https://openstreetmap.org |
Copyright OpenStreetMap and contributors, under an open license |