Changeset: 55791609
(no comment)
Closed by mikesullivan1990
Tags
created_by | Vespucci 10.0.5 |
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imagery_used | Bing aerial imagery |
locale | en_US |
Discussion
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Comment from pitscheplatsch
Hi mikesullivan1990, welcome to OSM. May I know the reason behind deleting many mapped service ways? Thanks.
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Comment from freebeer
Hi Nice-one,
Many thanks for your great tools! The best excuse for not having a Real Life.
I was going to ask if your pages could link to overpass-api like above with HTTPS, which seems to work for me, but on closer inspection they seem not to finish loading after I massage the URL.
Or links like https://openstreetmap.org/... that get a redirect that take precious seconds of `lynx' status messages each time when I could view a hundred changeset comments a minute.
But that's secondary.
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Mike, could you explain what your intentions were with the building here which ... no wait, this is weird.
I see you changed its geometry, but also introduced what we call a Verschlimmbesserung by not-right-angled corners, when several excellent aerial imageries are available.
Now this is really weird, the object history I see from the OSM data doesn't even show your changes, so there's some advanced sorcery here I don't think I want to understand without strong drink.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/138230659/historyProbably the relations/role issue.
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We'd be happy to help, like I've done for several users whose changeset comments showed me they had fallen into common traps that made the map worse for a while.
Thanks! -
Comment from mikesullivan1990
Hello, pitscheplatsch and freebeer. I'm sorry for any confusion or if i had interrupted someone's work. I noticed these "serviceways" on Pokemon Go, which directly uses OSM, when i realized these seem to be the only personal driveways that are mapped. I hadn't noticed any new driveways being made in a while so I thought maybe it were a project no one wanted to finish or take over. These are people's driveway to their homes. Mapping every driveway in Sacramento is absurd and pointless in my opinion when there are countless buildings and the homes alone still need to be mapped. I removed them for consistency. But, to each his own. If there is someone out there really willing to do the work then im all for it. Unless there is an entirely different reason for these "serviceways". Again, I apologize for any inconvenience.
As for the building, it wasnt there until i added it. It was one of those times where I thought I might as well add the building while Im at it. I'm using the android app Vespucci for mapping, so any "sorcery" is on their part lol. Oh and I would love to learn how to make perfect angles. I'm still getting the hang of Vespucci and so far I can turn "Ways" and "nodes" into buildings by drawing on touchscreen but thats about all i know. Oh, and i just compared my options for Arial imagery on Vespucci and I've found Mapbox is much clearer and i made a mistake by using Bing -
Comment from freebeer
Hi Mike,
Sorry for the delay in my reply. I had one of the regular cullings that loses all my bookmarked pages of interest, so I'm hoping I can find them all from Pascal's helpful website.
You will find that OpenStreetMap develops in stages, all different. For example, you have opened a lot of Notes (bug-reports) asking for many businesses and buildings to be added.
There was a stage when mappers were content to only add point nodes for a few businesses and call it a day. In other parts of the world, even in the US, business buildings are being fleshed out with multitudes of parts for a 3-D rendering. Also, I see little in your area of private houses, garages, even sheds, that are standard in many parts of the world, and with time and enthusiastic mappers, will certainly be seen here.
I had, before my crash, discovered a well-mapped neighbourhood with every private drive to every house marked and more details than that, also within the US - somewhere. I could trivially point you to a smaller town where more than 5 years ago an enthusiastic mapper drew in every single house and driveway, creating an island of detail, which over time has become surrounded by a whole countryside of detail. But that's not here.
Different mappers work to different standards in different areas. Perhaps this mapper only worked in the one smaller area. But as a general rule, we go by the philosophy that mappers are building upon each others' work, and do not take kindly to tearing down that work without good reason. Something you don't see as sensible, may quickly become established. Suppose I draw in an island of private homes, sheds, and garages nearby? Will you delete it too because it's out of place where the default is only street lines?
Or because there are no housenumbers?
A private drive is a simple linear way to express there is a residence or other building that my skill level can't map to my satisfaction, or to orient where surveyed housenumbers should be mapped. There is also a firm that is adding them for the aid of, well, let's say paperboys as an easy-to-understand shortcut - I think US postal laws limit adverts into the mailbox to the Post.
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You will never find consistency in a project like OSM with as many different ideas as thousands or millions of mappers. Only if the number of mappers dwindles down to nothingness, or if orders from above arrive from Our New Ownership (all hail Niantic) to map in a particular style, only include this, exclude that, and lakes belong everywhere.
Remember, you may think drawing the homes is more important *before* the driveways, but you can't decide that for everyone. I'd rather leave buildings with more than six nodes, or which I can't see in zoomlevel 21 imagery, for a better mapper than myself and do what I can to improve the map within my limitations today.
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The building you added/modified is an interesting case. I think it's in its third revision; apologies if I didn't note your name carried through. I know it's got some magic that breaks the normal tools to follow its history.
It caught my eye due to your wish to map buildings from a smartphone/tablet (you said Android), and a good example how you've started with something complicated, my first impression was that it had gotten worse than in v2.
Making perfect 90° angles is important - my editor has the quadrilateralise() function that does mysterious mathematics but somehow fails when I have too many nodes, or too close - I've not tried to understand the math. Your chosen building also has a semi-hidden 45° roof side, and I believe others.
Good that you have found the better imageries. Never having used the Best Editor Of All, JOSM, myself, I have read the best buildings come from a plugin dedicated to providing the tools to draw as perfectly as I would like.
I still don't know if a touchscreen is helpful. Then, even with a fullsized tablet I can never use the kezboard as I like (where an IBM Model M clickety-click is the Holy Grail), always inadvertently hitting wrong functions; and for editing, a mouse can give me pixel-almost-perfect precision, rather than the many-cm inaccuracy of me fat fingers.
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All that aside, I'm going to try and visualise your building history here.
And please keep in mind, OSM does not strive for a uniform standard, or style, or level of perfection, but always tries to get better. I'd love to point you to many examples of Best Of OSM (or Worst) to show what others are doing, right or wrong. Some of these are examples of Tagging For The Renderer, a trap into which you have appeared to have slipped by referencing the appearance in your Pokémon Go, which is only one of probably thousands of depictions of the map data, and but one of millions of users ranging from businesses to goverment agencies.
Hope that clears things up. Your work was snared by a watch I'd placed out for a simple form of hotel SEO vandalism - deleting well-mapped buildings, service drives, pools, car parks in the vicinity of a hotel, presumably to make the advert marker for it stand out, so don't think I've got it in for you (I do ;-) because I want to see how well you can map from Android). -
Comment from mikesullivan1990
Yes, that definitely clears things up. I had no idea there would be towns mapped with so much detail. Sacramento and the surrounding cities are big with populations in the millions so I assumed not much has been finished anywhere. Like OSM were more in its infancy than I thought, and that there are almost no mappers. Aside from some detailed complexes, not a whole lot looks to have been done. But obviously there is a lot more work to it than it looks.
Maybe I'm just a little impatient and I've always been into mapping. As a child I accurately mapped the inside of anybody and everybodies houses. Most of the time by picture memory when i got home. Even mapped my apartment complexes lol. This all stemmed from playing video games on SNES, N64 and PS where I would map out games for reference and fun. So, that being said, when i first came to OSM I seen potential EVERYWHERE and I'd love for it all to be completed. My organised (albeit selfish) thought was Roads, buildings, parks, and water first. It makes the most sense (to me). It all looks so simple on first glance, but I now see there is a lot more going on behind the curtain and OSM isn't so insignificant as I thought.
Ive never heard of OSM until it was discovered that Niantic uses it for PoGo. Maybe once I've seen it referenced in the past, but it seems no one really speaks of it until now. I have a feeling OSM could see some major development from here on because of the hundreds of thousands of PoGo players who are hearing about it. In the past two weeks there were to seperate cases of vandalism in different parts of the world. Screenshots of PoGo were being shared that showed words that people drew using ways on OSM editors, like "daddy" smack dab on some houses. On the other hand, this could ruin things for everyone. We will just have to see how Niantic chooses to respond and deal with problems like vandalism. Until then, you can probably expect more naive newbies like me comin on here lol.
On another note, Yeah i realize a tablet even with a stylus is very inefficient and Its times like these I wish I had a real computer again. I want to do things legit. Which is why im taking my feedback with full consideration. I just don't have the right tools and knowledge yet. But thanks to you, I have received some of that knowledge lol
Thank you for your time, patience to speak with me, and of course some of your wisdom. -
Comment from freebeer
Hi, thanks for the long and detailed response, letting us get to know you.
OSM is not just a mapping project, not just a free database, but is in the process forming a community (of freaks ;-). These conversations are open, as is all the work you do, so if others can benefit from my pointless ramblings, printing them out to line birdcages or something, then all the better.
I'll throw out this URL so you can see how an isolated part of the world not terribly far away from you appears:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/34.16021/-117.41181&layers=N
It has its problems of course, just like
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/55.83289/38.18332&layers=N
which is a bit further away, yet still interesting.
And of course Disney World, which may look great on the screen but is useless for data consumers wanting to do routing.
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There are some issues with everything in this particular changeset of yours, which I'll address later in a followup.
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OSM is, indeed, still in its perpetual infancy. The US is perhaps in general five to ten years behind the first places to get the sort of detail I take for granted, which I saw going from vast empty space to detailed vegetation mapping.
Your interests are logical; my interest in obtaining the OSM data to put on a cast-off Garmin was to fill out point amenities like drinking water, WCs, and selected shops, things useful to someone cycling for 16 or more hours a day.
.But for now, I took a closer look at what you had done and what data was nearby, and that can be seen at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1419027496#map=19/38.72970/-121.25610&layers=ND
where everything, and not just what PoGo chooses to show you can be seen.
The particular invisible node I highlighted is a cable distribution box, added by the same mapper whose driveways seemed superfluous to you, and I thought to meself, `self, perhaps this is a mapper for a cable plant who also maps minor details applicable, such as drives to represent each residence served by that particular cable distribution point.'
Of course that's not true, but it's a potential use of OSM just as in europe many governments or public transport systems, even businesses (much like Wal*Mart nearer to you) are using OSM as a repository for their data for the public.
PoGo is, for a bit over a year now, just one of the more recent entities who can save a penny by using the OSM data, and sadly the most disruptive, as they do not offer what I describe as a service (like Red Cross rescues in difficult terrain) for the public, but rather entertainment with personal benefits that is too easy to game the system to cheat in ways that very negatively affect the thousands of other users.
I can see a lot of good coming from the flood of players. There are several new members whose usernames caught my eye at the time, but recently I was pleasantly surprised to notice one of them as one of the top contributors with several thousand items to her/his name one random day, then soon after happened to randomly stumble upon some of those contributions at an area I was investigating. Work well done.
The problem is that OSM is still in baby shoes in the US and many other parts of the world with a PoGo player population, so those contributions stand out and are easily identified but there just aren't enough eyeballs yet to offer the sort of help I'm happy to give you, that I know won't go to waste.
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There are a lot more than just the two cases of vandalism you refer to. Generally we OSMlers may call vandalism any deliberately false data, and not just the sort of spray-painting that has always been background noise in OSM, where someone would carefully draw a tree-row, outline it with elaborate shrubbery, add a few small ponds, and upload that to OSM with description ``HAW HAW PEANUS''.
The particular vandalism you name was not just `DADDY' atop of houses, but rather that five detailed houses with building details were demolished, in their place a park was founded with a couple amenities, and between all the Do Not Tread On The Grass areas were isolated footpaths forming letters on which any park visitor would be stranded, unable to be routed back to safety.
The obvious clues it was Pokemon-related are the priority on parks and footpaths. That it took two weeks and an anonymous tipoff (whom I think I can thank as a distinguished part of the community) speaks poorly on the penetration of OSM into the general public at present, and the lack of eyeballs to spot that sort of thing over such a vast country.
The second similar case I'm aware of is where a government car park was flooded -- another tell-tale giveaway. That one was caught quicker, but also demonstrates the level of trust shown new users as well as trust in the community to deal with such issues.
There are countless other cases I've seen, for example if the schoolgrounds southwest of your work here were repeatedly deleted, or military bases removed from the map.
Luckily some days ago a change was made to PoGo so that military is no longer a problem, but the issue that caused you to delete the service drives, or in other places they get changed incorrectly into footpaths, still needs addressing by Niantic, as the fact you can see them (at all) is their issue.
It would also be nice if streams were to be recognised also, as now with water items featuring prominently in PoGo, there is a falsification of data where streams are turned into rivers, deviating from the OSM truth.
So yeah, someone could write a thesis on how PoGo is influencing OSM, more than just our back-and-forth here.
Probably to be entitled `OSM v. Human Nature: Battle of the Titans' with an anime feature to follow (anna *wicked* soundtrack!).
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Niantic is totally unrelated to OSM except that they suck up the data and base their game on it, and no longer have to pay Google for the maps and data. They probably could not be bothered what happens to OSM, it falls upon the OSM community to defend itself and its principles (the truth, the whole world is not a park and your mother is not a historic monument), and for the PoGo community to police itself against the abusers, cheaters, those who want to bend the truth for their own benefit by turning their home into a park rather than as originally intended, get outside and active to go to the places with the rewards PoGo players strive for.
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Whew. Sorry for sounding like your grampaw thar. That should keep a lot of fish wrapped up as well as litter the streets of this Carneval time (narri, narro, alaaf, hellau, and all that, which reminds me, gotta get outside and act like a fool in public, not just for OSM)
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More on the technical issues to follow. -
Comment from freebeer
Sorry, lost track of this.
Can I ask you to look at https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/138230659#map=19/38.72969/-121.25652&layers=ND
which will show you the -- partial -- history of the building in this changeset you say was not there until you added it.
Unfortunately, as a visual history will show, in fact it was (at v1, not sure why I thought v2).
But what is causing me a great lack of sleep is how this does not display your changes here, even though the 0utline is that which you changed.
In order to see that you had in fact made a change, I have to examine each point making up the building.
Clicking on the first listed node, that you shifted to the north,
Node History: 1515113266
(no comment)
Edited 21 days ago by mikesullivan1990
Version #2 · Changeset #55791609
Location: 38.7300837, -121.2565490
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Roseville buildings
Edited about 6 years ago by Eureka gold
Version #1 · Changeset #9931425
Location: 38.7300493, -121.2565557
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Furthermore, where you had deleted some of the driveways, there remain now orphan nodes visible. I'll pick one of them:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/998963022#map=19/38.72969/-121.25652&layers=ND
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So, while your Vespucci deleted the way between this node and the road, it left behind the node itself.
Generally I would consider that to be a bug, or wonder if I'm still asleep, or if lack of sleep has taken its toll on me.
So somehow the way you are using Vespucci is not quite .. well, not compatible with my beginner's view of how the data should be treated.
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Now, from the changeset summary, I see you deleted some 11 ways, perhaps all driveways, which were connected to one drive also mentioned.
Now, having determined this summary does not tell me what you did without first undergoing brain surgery/amputation, I feed it to a visual difference URL like so:
https://nrenner.github.io/achavi/?changeset=55791609
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Here I can make sense of things:
On the building, you expanded its area by moving the five top nodes, and now that you have seen the better imagery backgrounds, you can see that this made things worse.
You also deleted 11 driveways. Six in their entirety, but somehow for five of them the end nodes were left intact. That I cannot explain, but I don't think it should happen. Especially not inconsistently.
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My feeling when viewing the visual difference of this changeset is that you deleted the driveways for whatever reason, and you made an unneeded change to the building, which I'm sure you will agree was not an improvement.
And somehow the orphan nodes were left behind and your changes were not transferred to the building outline proper.
My suggestion, if you agree to restore the building to a more right-angled shape and to return the driveways so those homeowners need no longer park on the street, is that this changeset be reverted in its entirety as a faulty mistake with bugs introduced by Vespucci.
I will look over your other changesets to see if similar weirdness beyond the relations manifests itself, but for this you won't lose any valuable work (unless you have a grudge against private driveways or right-angled buildings ;-)
Ways (12)
- Cirby Way (86099379), v3
86092825, v286092824, v286092821, v286092840, v286092835, v286092826, v286092839, v286092833, v286092822, v286092829, v286092834, v2
Nodes (1-20 of 22)
- 1
- 2
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