Changeset: 57190122
Please leave these trails off the map. The forest service is actively looking to shut stuff down. Publicizing "secret" trails right now is a threat to their existence.
Closed by svdsrfr6
Tags
changesets_count | 19 |
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created_by | iD 2.7.1 |
host | https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit |
imagery_used | Bing aerial imagery |
locale | en-US |
Discussion
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Comment from j03lar50n
I'm not sure that is valid reasoning to remove this data. Please stop deleting the data. I think this changeset possibly warrants a revert. Have you broached this topic elsewhere? Is there another discussion happening that one can follow?
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Comment from svdsrfr6
Believe me, I wish it could remain as I use it often. There was an in-person meeting with the Forest Service a few days ago and one of the rangers was very upset about the trails on the ridge and actively wanted to block them. I think it's a good idea to leave them off the map for awhile until things simmer down and the Forest Service comes up with an official plan for how they want to maintain West Ridge.
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Comment from svdsrfr6
If you want to revert you can, I don't know much about openstreetmap, I'm just doing what I think is in the best interest of keeping the "off the radar" trails open rather than getting them blocked and creating hassles.
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Comment from j03lar50n
I will be reverting the deletion of this data. I understand your concern, but the physical features on the ground are what the Forest Service is worried about - not a digital map. Until things change - this map is a correct representation of what is on the ground...and many of us have put in a lot of time mapping it.
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Comment from svdsrfr6
But a digital map is what makes people discover and ride the illegal trails, which is a large part of why the problem exists. By mapping illegal trails, people think they're legal, and ride/maintain them. According to the Forest Service that is illegal activity. I really think illegal trails should be left off the map, so that users on OSM and other apps that use OSM data don't unwittingly ride/hike/maintain illegal trails.
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Comment from svdsrfr6
Users have unwittingly followed the trails I deleted onto Camp San Luis (military) property and gotten $400 tickets, bikes confiscated, and misdemeanors on their records. I don't think trails like that should be on OSM!
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Comment from j03lar50n
Fair points! But I really think that this should be discussed before outright deleting features. I also think that until the trail is physically blocked or altered on the ground - that these are legitimate features to include on the map. Perhaps their tags can be modified - have you explored doing that? Proceeding with revert
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Comment from svdsrfr6
Gotcha - sorry, I didn't know about OSM etiquette and discussion capabilities. I have not explored modifying tags, I'll look into it. I've never viewed tags when exploring the OSM map and doubt most users do. Please consider the real-world implications of having these trails visible to the curious public and weigh that against the benefits. These trails also lead people onto private ranch property and those property owners are currently complaining to the authorities about it (Sherriff and Forest Service). Military trespass, Forest Service crackdown, fines, misdemeanors, these are all real-world implications of having these trails on OSM. I really think they should not be publicized but will leave it up to you. If someone built an illegal trail that crossed your property, and that data was put on OSM and it resulted in many others unwittingly trespassing on your land, how would you feel about having that trail on OSM? That's the reality of this.
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Comment from svdsrfr6
...maybe you're already aware of this, but many trail guide apps pull data from OSM. Ridewithgps.com and trailforks.com are two that come to mind but there are many others. It's not just people seeing the trails here - they're seeing them on trail guide apps too, which is probably a bigger source of the problem rather than OSM itself.
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Comment from j03lar50n
Please take a look at tagging with the 'access' key https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access ...these _are_ still physical features, but it's up to whomever is rendering the data _how_ that data gets 'drawn'/rendered. If an app uses OSM data, it should make a distinction on trail segments that are 'private' etc. or not render them at all.
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Comment from svdsrfr6
thank you!
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Comment from hpanno
I would hate to have features on the map deleted for lack of appropriate tagging. There are tags available that describe data as non-accessible. I would think that the responsibility falls on those who create the apps referencing any OSM data to filter and grab the appropriate data based on its attributes. Im not sure if this is an issue with the fact that the data exisits so much as it is an issue with how the data has been attributed. If the data is tagged incorrectly, that is an easy fix.
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Comment from svdsrfr6
I think it's wiser to not map illegal trails at all, or trails that lead users to trespass on military land or private property, rather than to put the onus on those using the data.
Ways (20)
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