The story started from note 3835559, with a small bank in Taitung:

shop=金融服務 ? What is the meaning of that shop value? What kind of services or products are sold here? Is anything from https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop fitting? Maybe new value needs to be invented? Maybe this data is wrong and there is no shop here? Maybe it is not a shop but something else?

So what exactly, the “池上鄉農會” bank is?

I cannot answer since the Farmers’ Association (農會) is a complicated organisation. I simply don’t know at first. Therefore, I asked a question in OSM Cultural-spheres Group whether countries have such organisations as well:

There’s an agricultural group in Taiwan called “Framers’ Association” (農會) which aims for helping framers like providing farming tools, selling framers products, and providing financial services (i.e. banks) for framers. I noticed that some agricultural groups existed in Japan and Korea. In Japan, it is called “Japan Agricultural Cooperatives” (農業協同組合); while in Korea, it is called “National Agricultural Cooperative Federation” (농업협동조합). My question for folks who live in Japan and Korea: What’s the group do in your country? Like Framers’ Association in Taiwan? How do you map their office? My question for folks who live elsewhere: Do you have similar agricultural group in your countries? If so, how do you map their office?

(In Chinese) Where do your farmers go when they want to buy tools or sell products? Do they go to the local government or private market? What if they need to deposit money? Find a private bank?

Taiwanese 農會

A farmers association shall operate for such purposes assafeguarding farmers’ rights and interests, enhancing farmers’knowledge and skills, boosting the modernization of agriculture, increasing crop yields, improving farmers’ livelihood and developing rural economy. - Article 1, The Farmers Association Act

To put it simply, the Farmers’ Association (農會) is a Taiwanese agricultural cooperative, but lots of differences from a classic agricultural cooperative.

In detail, the Farmers’ Association is a group aimed at assisting farmers to finish certain tasks, such as promoting agricultural products, financial services, and technical support. However, since members aren’t fully farmers, the Farmers’ Association is not a purely agricultural cooperative.

At OSM, things associated with the Farmers’ Association are:

1. Offices for staff of the Farmers’ Association.
2. Shops for buying and selling agricultural products from farmers.
3. Banks for farmers.

Chinese agricultural groups

At first 快乐的老鼠宝宝 answered that no such organisation existed in China.

(In Chinese) If the “tools” you are referring to are farming implements or consumable goods (i.e. fertilizer), some farming implement shops sell them. I don’t know whether they are private stores or not. About depositing money they can deposit anywhere they please. But I guess only rural commercial banks are interested in establishing in the countryside. About the products, Farmers sell their products at a local collecting point. I feel that it is very marketised.

I then asked what a Rural Commercial Bank is. Based on the following answer, it is a semi-state-run bank. However, the private sector is not an agricultural cooperative as well.

Nevertheless, agricultural cooperatives do exist in China. I haven’t researched it, though.

Let’s talk about the selling side. Someone said marketing cooperatives in China sell agricultural products. But, I feel some nostalgia when hearing the cooperatives regain attention in 2022……

Korean 농협

Later, 띵야 answered the historial background of Korean National Agricultural Cooperative Federation (농업협동조합, NH):

(In Korean) As far as I know, since the Korean Agricultural Cooperative(NH) is copied from the Japanese Agricultural Cooperative(JA), I believe there’s little difference between the Korean one and the Japanese one.

I then asked how the NH was organised and how it tagged:

1. When a product goes from a farmer to a consumer, what does NH do? Do they have their stores? Or do they sell products to a market?
2. How to tag NH? Is there any unique key? Or the ‵office=*‵ tag is an office, ‵amenity=bank‵ is a bank?
3. Does the association need a new key? If so, can associations in Taiwan, Japan, and Korea both use the same tag?

This is his answer:

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The current organization of agricultural cooperatives in Korea is a bit complicated. This is because they have evolved to fit the situation and reality.

There are two main types of cooperative organizations: cooperative federations and financial institution organizations, which operate separately from cooperative federations.

Financial institution organizations are currently categorized and tagged as “banks” in OSM.(amenity=bank + brand=NH농협은행 + brand:en=NH Bank) Cooperative federations do a lot of things (see the Japanese example): they do some banking, they sell produce on behalf of contracted members, and for some crops, they buy in bulk.

Cooperative federations have local branches in each region, and local branches do their own business according to local conditions. Despite the translation difficulties, this is the shortest and simplest explanation of what a cooperative union does. https://m.blog.naver.com/pkingj/220474054309

At least in Korea and Japan, farmers’ unions (cooperative associations) have nothing to do with the government and are not farmers’ associations. (In Thailand, the farmers’ union is a government department).

I know that there are farmers’ unions all over the world, so I think it would be a good idea to have a new tag for them. If we don’t have a similar or suitable tag, we might want to create something like “office=guild”.

I’m sure there are all sorts of guild organizations out there, and I’m surprised that I can’t find a proper tag for them, at least on the OSM Wiki. https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1zbo

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(In Korean) Although several types of “cooperatives” do banking services, it is difficult to see them as “banks”. (You can tag it as a child property, though) Although “Nonghyup Bank” do exist in Korea, it is different to NH and its financial services. The “cooperative=agricultural” tag looks fine to me.

(In Korean) The https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ko:Tag:office%3Dcooperative tag seems suitable before we find or create a better tag.

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I finally asked if there are shops operated by NH. The answer is It exists. That is NH Nonghyup Hanaro Mart

Also, read 농업협동조합법 제57조(사업) for details. This is the law in South Korea defines what NH does.

Thread:

• NH organisation 1
• NH organisation 2
• NH organisation 3
• NH tagging 1
• NH tagging 2
• NH tagging 3

Japanese 農協

And Satoshi told me how JA Group organised and tagged:

(In Japanese) Japan Agricultural Cooperatives prepares anything that a farmer may need. As Wikipedia described, the cooperatives also run banking and insurance services. Furthermore, they hold agricultural seminars and do promotions and distribution for their agricultural products.

(In Japanese) Generally, I believe “amenity=bank” for the banking services is fine since they perform the same function as ordinary banks. (For office services,) looks like the “coopetative” tag can be used. About “association”, it’s similar but a little different. It is hard to decide (which tags should we use).

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So in a nutshell, the JA group is also aimed at assisting farmers and launching services such as financial services, agricultural tutoring, and promoting agricultural products.

Financial services tagged amenity=bank, but it is between a rock and a hard place for tagging between coopetative and association.

In the end?

I finally got some points from the organisation. Guess I will tag:

1. office=cooperative for offices.
2. shop=farm for agricultural products’ shops.
3. amenity=bank for banks operated by the Farmers’ Association.

Acknowledgements

I need to thank Mateusz Konieczny first. You are the reason why the diary was created.

Then I need to thank the OSM Cultural-spheres Group group. I wouldn’t understand such an organisation without the group’s help.

Finally, I want to thank those who participated in the discussion, ordered by speaking order:

1. 快乐的老鼠宝宝
2. 띵야
3. Herman
4. Satoshi
5. 🐭🐰🐱 🌸🍀🌼
6. Dongha Hwang

事情要從 note 3835559 這座台東的銀行開始：

shop=金融服務 ? What is the meaning of that shop value? What kind of services or products are sold here? Is anything from https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop fitting? Maybe new value needs to be invented? Maybe this data is wrong and there is no shop here? Maybe it is not a shop but something else?

所以「池上鄉農會」的金融服務，到底是什麼呢？其實我很難回答。因為在臺灣，農會這組織，其實蠻複雜的……我自己一開始也不是很清楚。我只好在 OSM Cultural-spheres Group 問其他成員，其他國家有沒有類似農會的組織。這樣下次解釋起來才好回答。

在台灣，有種組織叫做「農會」，專門提供農民農作工具、把農民的產品賣出去、還有開辦銀行給農民存錢。看了一下，日本與韓國好像也有農業團體：日本叫做「農業協同組合」、韓國叫做「농업협동조합」。對日韓的朋友，我的問題是，這種團體在這些國內做的，也是類似台灣「農會」的工作嗎？這種團體的辦公室、或金融服務，你們會怎麼標？如果是其他國家的朋友，我的問題是，你們的國家有類似台灣「農會」的團體嗎？有的話，會怎麼標？

如果你們的農民想農具、賣產品，怎麼辦？找當地政府、或市場嗎？想存錢呢？與其他人一樣找私人銀行嗎？

臺灣農會

農會以保障農民權益，提高農民知識技能，促進農業現代化，增加生產收益，改善農民生活，發展農村經濟為宗旨。

簡單來說，臺灣農會是臺灣版的農業合作社。不過中間有很多特化。

詳細來說，臺灣農會是幫助農民完成某些任務的團體：比方說農產品宣傳、存錢放款、銷售支援、技術指導等。收入來源不完全來自農民、金融服務、或是農產品，所以不完全等同國外的農業合作社。

在OSM，農會相關服務的地方有：

1. 辦公室：就是給農會員工辦公的地方。
2. 農產品商店：部份農會會收購農民的農產品、然後放到自己開的商店販賣。
3. 農會銀行：就是金融服務。

中國的農業團體

首先，快乐的老鼠宝宝就立刻回我，說沒有類似的組織。

如果是农具或者消耗品如化肥，有专门的农具商店（但是不是私营我不清楚） 存钱取钱随意，不过乡镇上应该只有农村商业银行愿意设网点　卖农产品会有很多贩子到田间地头收，粮食作物可能自己拉去粮站卖　感觉还是非常市场化的

我稍後追問農村商業銀行的性質。透過回答，我發現似乎是某種半國營性質的銀行。但是民間那邊，似乎不是臺灣的農會。

儘管如此，中國有似乎有農業農村部與合作社。只是我沒有深究。

最後是銷售通路。我後來才知道中國有供銷合作社，負責農產品的收購與銷售。似乎還有店面。只是，供銷社在2022重回江湖，有歷久彌新的感覺啊……

韓國的농협

後來띵야告訴我有關韓國的「農業協同組合（농업협동조합）」的歷史背景：

한국은 일본의 ‘농협’을 배워서 만든 것으로 알고 있기 때문에 일본의 ‘농협’과 크게 다르지는 않을 것입니다.

我後來問了農協的大致組成與標記方法：

1. 農產品從當地農民到消費者手中，農業組合會做什麼樣的角色？會自己開店舖賣農產品嗎？還是幫忙把農產品賣給超市？
2. 農業組合的辦公室、或事務所，在 OSM 會怎麼標？金融服務呢？有特別的標法嗎？還是辦公室是 ‵office=*‵ 銀行是 ‵amenity=bank‵ ？
3. 農業組合會需要新的 key 嗎？是的話，三國的農業團體能共通嗎？

他的回答如下：

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The current organization of agricultural cooperatives in Korea is a bit complicated. This is because they have evolved to fit the situation and reality. There are two main types of cooperative organizations: cooperative federations and financial institution organizations, which operate separately from cooperative federations. Financial institution organizations are currently categorized and tagged as “banks” in OSM.(amenity=bank + brand=NH농협은행 + brand:en=NH Bank) Cooperative federations do a lot of things (see the Japanese example): they do some banking, they sell produce on behalf of contracted members, and for some crops, they buy in bulk. Cooperative federations have local branches in each region, and local branches do their own business according to local conditions. Despite the translation difficulties, this is the shortest and simplest explanation of what a cooperative union does. https://m.blog.naver.com/pkingj/220474054309

At least in Korea and Japan, farmers’ unions (cooperative associations) have nothing to do with the government and are not farmers’ associations. (In Thailand, the farmers’ union is a government department). I know that there are farmers’ unions all over the world, so I think it would be a good idea to have a new tag for them.

If we don’t have a similar or suitable tag, we might want to create something like “office=guild”. I’m sure there are all sorts of guild organizations out there, and I’m surprised that I can’t find a proper tag for them, at least on the OSM wiki. https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1zbo

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여러 종류의 ‘조합’(組合)에서 약간의 금융업무도 하지만 이것을 ‘은행’이라고 보기는 어렵습니다.(하위 속성으로 쓸 수 있을 것입니다.) 한국의 경우에도 ‘농협은행’(農協銀行)이 있지만 이것은 농협조합과는 별개의 조직이며, 농협조합에서 하는 금융업무와도 별개입니다. ‘cooperative=agricultural’ 태그도 괜찮아 보입니다.

더 나은 태그를 찾거나 알맞은 태그를 개발하기 전까지는 ‘https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ko:Tag:office%3Dcooperative’ 태그를 쓰는 것이 알맞아 보입니다.

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簡單來說，韓國的農協出於歷史演變，組織也很複雜。不過，韓國的農協主要區分為兩大組織：一是 cooperative federations 、二是 institution organizations。大略上，institution organizations 負責金融業務。與臺灣的農會銀行類似；而 cooperative federations 、則是有買賣部份農夫的農產品、還做一部分的銀行業務。大概是類似臺灣農會的農產品商店、加上農會本身幫助農夫的事務、還有小部份的農會銀行？

另外，日韓的農協都是非政府性質的農業合作社。性質上，依舊與臺灣的農會不一樣。

接著後來才發現，原來這種農業合作社有專屬的標籤：cooperative=agricultural。

最後，我再度問了有關農產品商店的問題。答案是，南韓存在這種商店。名字叫做「農協Hanaro流通」（농협 하나로마트）。

詳細的性質可以參考농업협동조합법 제57조(사업)。這是類似臺灣的農會法，該法規範了韓國農協的組織構成與任務。

Thread:

• 農協的組成1
• 農協的組成2
• 農協的組成3
• 農協的標記1
• 農協的標記2
• 農協的標記3

日本的農協

最後 Satoshi 告訴我有關日本農協的構成與標記。

日本の農協は、農家が必要になりそうな機能をだいたいすべて備えています。Wikipediaにもあるとおり、銀行の機能や、保険に関する事業も行っています。農業に関する知識のセミナーや、農産物のPR活動、流通のとりまとめも行っていることがあります。

一般的には、銀行と同じような扱われ方をしますので、amenity=bankでもよいような気がします。 coopetativeというタグがあるようです。 associationだと、似ているけど少し違うかな。ちょっと判断がつけづらいです。

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所以簡單來說，日本的農協也是以支援農夫為中心，開展必要的服務：比方說金融業務、農業知識、農產品的宣傳與流通。

金融業務同樣標為 amenity=bank，但在其他業務的方面就在 coopetative 與 association 之間左右為難。

結果？

我總算對這組織有點概念了。我應該會這樣標記：

1. 辦公室： office=cooperative
2. 農產品商店： shop=farm。
3. 農會銀行： amenity=bank

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一些原文翻譯與英文翻譯再找時間。

致謝

首先，先致謝 Mateusz Konieczny。沒有你的 Note，我就不會去想這個問題。

再來，我要致謝 OSM Cultural-spheres Group 這群。沒有這群，我不會對這團體有深刻的理解。

最後，按照該群的發言先後順序，向有關農業組合的討論者致謝：

1. 快乐的老鼠宝宝
2. 띵야
3. Herman
4. Satoshi
5. 🐭🐰🐱 🌸🍀🌼
6. Dongha Hwang

今天編輯地圖時，發現地圖上多了很多點。資訊看起來應該是類似門牌的東西。再查一下記錄，是 typebrook 的自動門牌匯入程式加上去的。

匯入過程放在 Github 上。

一方面，我還蠻開心台中市政府、以及有心的開發者，能完善整個地圖的資訊；不過另一方面，因為程式，所以突然多了上百個相同的點……唯一的差別是樓層。

像是台中市大里區新明路16號，是一個有十五層樓公寓，那麼就會看到有十五個點會在同一個地方。加上相近的號碼……點的數量可想而知。

看了 Github 的筆記，作者好像也在煩惱這件事：

可能是因為在同一棟大樓，不同門牌會有相同的座標，是否該將它們全部匯入？或者僅保留一個較大的單位即可？

我其實也不太確定這方面要怎麼呈現？不知道 Supaplex 有沒有什麼想法？

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大家都知道，台灣到處都有日本品牌的商店。

當日本的編輯者，寫了一篇規範日本常見品牌的時候，我發現…裡面很多日本品牌，在台灣也都有開。

所以……我覺得應該對台灣的 OSM 有用。