Changeset: 131984825
Incorrect label on two locations, fixed.
Closed by Coast59
Tags
changesets_count | 1 |
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created_by | iD 2.24.1 |
host | https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit |
imagery_used | Bing Maps Aerial |
locale | en-US |
Discussion
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Comment from eerib
Hello Coast59,
Welcome to OpenStreetMap and thank you for doing your first contributions. Unfortunately, this contribution and your others appears to go against OpenStreetMap policies and therefore I have reverted the deletions (Changesets 131985008, 131984944, 131984825).
Please refer to the Ground Truth policy.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ground_truth
Other than the OpenStreetMap policies there are a few other reasons why backcountry features should be on OpenStreetMap. A few of these reasons include:
1. The location of these backcountry features is critical for user safety. The Cloudburst cabin is in an area regularly used by ski touring and peak bagging groups. Also, note that the Cloudburst cabin is available on other maps such as BackRoadMapBooks and Bivouac.
2. Professional organizations rely on OpenStreetMap data, including the BC WIldfire Service, BC Ambulance Service, BC RCMP, and Search & Rescue groups. There has already been at least two search and rescue cases related to the two sauna cabins.
3. Deleting the backcountry features from the map only invites it to be re-added soon after by someone who perceives it to be missing.
If you disagree with my revert of your deletions then the appropriate approach would be to open a formal dispute with the OpenStreetMap Data Working Group (DWG). If you do open a dispute, please include a link to this changeset discussion. Please note that the DWG has already been contacted regarding the sauna cabin features in the past.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes
Thank you again for joining OpenStreetMap. - eerib
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Comment from Coast59
The builder of the sauna explicitly asked (see posted sign on the sauna entrance) to avoid sharing the place on social media or advertising its location. The only reason it exists is because of thousands of hours of work and planning by someone who welcomes others to enjoy it and share personally, but not digitally. It's utterly disrespectful to disregard this request. I have multiple friends who work in Squamish SAR, they do not need this posted on OSM in order to be effective, it's a rather poor excuse. All it does is draw more users to a totally unmanaged area, which results in more search and rescue calls, environmental damage and again, total disrespect of the builder's time and efforts.
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Comment from eerib
Hello Coast59,
I understand that the saunas were to be kept secret. My philosophy surrounding secret features is to only add those that are frequently visited and/or widely known and referenced (i.e. they’re no longer secret). If it’s a borderline case, I will add the feature but leave out specific tags that ensure the feature does not shown up on carto and on data consumers (websites/apps) but is still viewable by emergency and rescue services (more than just SAR groups). I do not believe the saunas are secret anymore, nor a borderline case, and that is why I added them to OpenStreetMap. I have compiled a few examples to illustrate my case.
1. The Strava Heatmap shows plenty of publicly shared activities - https://i.imgur.com/00N2wgn.jpg
2. The AllTrails Community Content shows plenty of publicly shared recorded activities and maps - https://imgur.com/a/zb5AELF
3. There is plenty of public social media posts about the saunas
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncQVUlimSNc
- https://www.tiktok.com/@thingz.about.me/video/6971564764325481733
- https://www.tiktok.com/@jdoms.pizza/video/7181564702605069574
- https://www.tiktok.com/@jdoms.pizza/video/7106949105812868358
- https://www.tiktok.com/@jdoms.pizza/video/7106952092295728390
- https://www.tiktok.com/@fraaaaaaaancis/video/6991963400825801989
- https://www.instagram.com/p/ClwWSByvmXC/
- https://www.instagram.com/p/CeooaP8vklr/
- https://www.instagram.com/p/CMN36Nxp5CX/
- https://www.instagram.com/p/CjUECX5rhAJ/
- https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl3_sxbpYDo/
- https://www.facebook.com/groups/1117796184947213/posts/5706569569403162/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/Squamish/comments/zlezom/saunas_in_the_mamquam/I do realize that even if a feature is no longer secret a stakeholder, such as the builder, may still not want the feature shared digitally. This is troublesome because many stakeholders may not want a feature shared digitally. Examples include neighborhood associations, forestry and mining companies, parks organizations, trail builders, etc. Removing features because a stakeholder did not want it shared digitally would degrade the database and impact user safety. This is why OpenStreetMap has a Ground Truth policy and tags that allow one to describe a feature in detail.
With all this said, I welcome feedback regarding my philosophy and what measures should be used to determine if a feature is no longer secret.
Cheers, eerib
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Comment from Coast59
Yes, there are sadly some social media posts on the saunas, most don't geo-tag the location, so even if the fact a sauna's existance is maybe known to some, it's a huge barrier to entry without a clear location. Also, you need to follow said accounts in order to discover it - a significant barrier to entry. Posting this on OSM means anyone, everywhere, on any app that consumed OSM data suddenly sees it - people that had no clue it existed suddenly know. It means that a feature goes from mild sustainable use to thousands. Exponential growth. I guarantee you that these saunas will get removed once this happens and it will happen so quick. It's such a shame, I don't understand how you don't see this??
The safety argument I just don't buy. I had a conversation with a friend from Squamish SAR on this exact issue just the other day. You referenced SAR incidents at the site; you'll then likely recall that when SAR pulled the couple from the sauna island after the river level shot up that the formal SAR incident report made no mention of a sauna! That was a very intentional attempt by the organization to respect a local builder's efforts. Moreover, SAR uses their own *private* CalTopo map DB, which includes literally hundreds of secret trails in the Sea to Sky that are not on OSM and hopefully will never be. They really don't need help in this regard. They'd love help from an on the ground volunteering capacity though!!
I don't think what you are doing is a community service or actually benefits the common good. Keeping these things of social media means you introduce a natural filter, a barrier to entry - allowing people who truly want it to put in effort, search for it and find it, feel that reward and be able to enjoy it and actually experience the magical solitude that these types of places provide.
You say this case is borderline, considering the direct appeal from the builder, I'd imagine out of respect for their efforts, taking a more conservative approach would be appropriate.
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Comment from eerib
Hello Coast59,
You're correct that the social media posts do not geo-tag the location but the dozens of public recorded activities and maps on Strava, AllTrails, Gaia, TrailForks, etc. do geo-tag the location and provide directions. Additionally, there has been social media posts in the past that did provide direction information, but they were taken down either by the creator or by report spamming.
The saunas are already seeing excessive growth due to natural word of mouth sharing and the recorded activities and maps. This is shown by the comments on various social media posts referring to a period prior to the saunas being mapped on OSM:
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"The city-its have already blown it out."
"The spots are already doomed."
"Even in the last six months it seems like it’s exploded. Anyone I’ve run into there says they’re from Vancouver. I can’t remember the last time I met someone who was in the sauna and lived in town."
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The way the trails leading to the saunas and the saunas themselves are currently mapped (i.e. removal of tourism=wilderness_hut tag from the saunas back in early December) should provide a barrier to discoverability. If we take a look at the way various data consumers present the data we can see that only FatMaps is still using the tourism=wilderness_hut tag to highlight the location of the buildings. Once FatMap updates their OSM data it should remove this highlighting of the location. Further, more responsible apps such as AllTrails and Gaia GPS are showing the trails with less emphasis.
I do realize there has been SAR cases in the area in the past and that SAR volunteers may not want the features mapped for fear of further cases. However, if we removed all features that a stakeholder, like SAR volunteers, wanted removed it would degrade the database and lead to impacted user safety. Do we start removing all unsanctioned double black diamond mountain bike trails? Do we start removing all informal scrambling/climbing routes? Do we start removing all unsanctioned backcountry cabins near avalanche terrain? It's a slippery slope and hence why the Ground Truth policy exists. I should also point out that SAR is not the only emergency stakeholder in this situation. There is also BC Ambulance Service, BC Wildfire Service, Fire Rescue, and other groups.
There are still plenty of features for users to stumble upon and enjoy. There are well over 100 unsanctioned backcountry cabins in the South Coast region that I have purposely left off OSM, including several within a 10km radius of the saunas. Those cabins are not frequently visited and are not widely referenced online - the key difference. Those cabins will also be visited primarily by new users stumbling upon them unlike the saunas.
Cheers eerib
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