Changeset: 147406352
Partial reversion of changesets 137773356, 140660737, 141445146 + added access=discouraged
Closed by mrpulley
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (18969 en_AU) |
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source | Survey 30 November 2023 + discussion on talk-au mailing list |
Discussion
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Comment from mrpulley
Partial reversion of changesets:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/137773356
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/140660737
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141445146I've added access=discouraged to the way.
This has been discussed on the talk-au mailing list.
Reasons for reversion:
This is still visible on the ground (checked by myself 30 November 2023)
The track is not formally closed.The actual reversion was delayed as there was the possibility of NPWS joining the discussion on the list, but unfortunately this never eventuated.
See also:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Why_can%27t_I_delete_this_trail%3F -
Comment from mrpulley
I have just received a private message from someone from NPWS. In summary, NPWS has officially closed the track, don't add it again. (There was nothing on the ground at survey to indicate it was a closed track.) If it is genuinely closed, then access=discouraged may be best changed to access=no, or possibly use the 'disused:' prefix. My edit had been discussed on the mailing list prior to reversion - I'll send a note back to the mailing list for further discussion.
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Comment from tonyf1
A message to ranger Stephen Stenberg and to ranger Patrick with whom I had the phone conversation. Please engage with us in discussion. This issue will never be resolved by removing tracks with no note or a note that the tracks do not exist. It is a pointless way for Parks to attempt resolution, OSM has much higher labour resources than Parks, Parks could never win an "edit war" and we do not want one. Please engage with us, at https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au or anywhere else. This issue will only be resolved with discussion. Thanks Tony.
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Comment from fortera_au
There is lifecycle prefixes that can be used to show something has been removed, but keeps it in the database so that other mappers don't re-map it based on aerial imagery. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lifecycle_prefix
I'd suggest demolished, removed, or razed.
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Comment from tonyf1
Yes, lifecycle prefixes are my preferred solution at the moment and I am maintaining some tracks, as in physically, in a state of demolished, removed, or razed. The organization doing the demolishing still has to monitor the ex track's condition and keep it in a state that is a fair match for the tagging. Also, this solution only works if the data users continue to respect the prefix and not render the track.
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Comment from tastrax
Perhaps PWS can add Mapillary images showing the track closure signs, active rehabilitation and other measures that have been put in place to rehabilitate this trail.
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Comment from mrpulley
On the mailing list, I mentioned the sign at the start of the 'controversial' path - I'll copy the description I gave on the list here:
On the left side of the sign, there’s a warning icon (exclamation mark), then “No safety rail”, another warning icon (man falling off edge of crumbling cliff), then “Unstable edges”.
On the right side of the sign is the text “End of track, no safety rail beyond this point”.
The sign is there to discourage walkers venturing further south, but it’s not technically a “do not enter” sign.
If we were to use a lifestyle prefix tag, I was thinking of disused, rather then demolished or razed, as there was still a visible path (not actively removed - at least not in the first section that i rechecked). -
Comment from mrpulley
I've uploaded a photo of the sign at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:End_of_track_sign,_Apsley_Falls.JPG . I didn't take any photos of the path.
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Comment from fortera_au
Yeah I'd have to agree with disused, and access=discouraged really, if NPWS actively starts removing the track/puts up signs clearly indicating access being forbidden, then the respective tags should change. Until there's no signs of a track on Bing/ESRI and on the ground, the way itself should remain to clearly indicate the current state.
Ways (1)
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