Changeset: 26566169
railway related tags
Closed by Geogast
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (7643 de) |
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Discussion
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Comment from SomeoneElse
Does adding "railway=museum" to every railway museum communicate something that perhaps "railway=museum" fails to? If so, I'm missing what it is :-)
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Comment from SomeoneElse
(or, if I can get it the right way around) "... that museum=railway fails to"?
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Comment from chillly
This looks like a global mechanical edit. Was it discussed?
I think it should be reverted and both worthless and undiscussed.
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Comment from Geogast
Nearly all the museums had been tagged with museum=railway by myself. This tag is not documentated nor proposed at all. But the "new" tag railway=museum is part of the openrailwaymap tagging scheme. So I ADDED this tag, I did not delete any tag, not even the ones I had added.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
Where was the "openrailwaymap" tagging scheme proposd and discussed? Tags added for "openrailwaymap" will end up in everyone else's data too. Also, I'm not convinced that "railway=museum" makes a lot of sense. I'm currenly only a couple of miles from http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/59292078 and while it is most definitely a museum, if you went there to catch a train you'd be very disappointed. Lots of people (myself included) extract railway data from OSM - this is another example of the "if you want X from OSM you have to extract X but then exclude X=Y because it's not really an X" - it makes the data more difficult to use for data consumers and doesn't add any more detail.
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Comment from chillly
These are not railway features they are museums. If I'm interested in green space features I extract landuse, leisure and sport features. I don't add greenspace=yes to all of those across the world to make my extract slightly easier. I will ask the data working group to revert this changeset.
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Comment from Nakaner
There are two topics regarding this changeset which can be discussed.
Topic 1 is the "mechanical edit question". From formal point of view, this edit can/should be reverted. It is a mechanical edit because we can doubt that Geogast has visited all museums. Mechanical edits which are not just a simple correction of mistakes (e.g. wrong spelled tags, trailing whitespace) have to be discussed.
The second question is about tagging. I disagree with SomeoneElse. New tags do not have to be discussed at Tagging and pass the common proposal process. What about Simple 3D Buildings Tagging Scheme and other newer 3D and indoor tagging schemes? They have not passed proposal process but still are heavily in use. Like OpenRailwayMap scheme, they are discussed in a [special part of OSM Forum](http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=42), the tagging schemes were created on meetings. OpenRailwayMap tagging scheme works the same way. It has a [multi-lingual mailing list](http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/archives/openrailwaymap/2014-October/thread.html) and most new tags have been invented on two meetings in [Cologne](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Mappingwochenende_2014_1) and [Bad Nauheim](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Aktiventreffen_2014_2).
I think that railway=museum is a right tag for [National Railway Museum in York](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:National_Railway_Museum). If you have a look at the [image of Great Hall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NRM_Great_Hall_merge2.jpg), you find a couple of locomotives. railway=museum does not mean that you can find working steam locomotives.
chilly wrote:
> These are not railway features they are museums.It's a railway museum. If it was not interesting for railway enthusiast, it would not have become part of OpenRailwayMap scheme or with a condition like "It should have working locomotives". The important parts of OpenRailwayMap community (people like me, rurseekatze, Geogast, bigbug21, rayquaza, …) are railway enthusiast.
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Comment from emacsen
Geogast, as per the mechanical edit policy: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy has this edit been discussed with the community? If not, I'm afraid that it will be subject to reversion. Please let me know if there's a public discussion somewhere (a mailing list archive, forum post, etc.), or I'll be reverting on behalf of the OSM Data Working Group. Since I don't enjoy doing reversions, please let me know if there's a community discussion for this mechanical edit that I can point to?
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Comment from Nakaner
I have been asked by DWG member Frederik Ramm, who knows me from Karlsruhe pub meeting as railway tagging expert, about my opinion in this case. You can find the first part of my answer two comments above this comment.
This changeset is no pure "mechanical edit". It seems to be done by hand with JOSM multiselect feature (Ctrl + F, add a tag). As Geogast said, he himself has added museum=railway to almost all objects. Now he added railway=museum to these objects because it is, in contrast to museum=railway, well documented.
Examples:
1. "Tren Museo", Mendoza, Argentinia. He added museum=railway in August 2013. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1941488061/history
2. National Railway Museum, York, UK. He added museum=railway to the POI node whose tags were transferred to the POI way by SomeoneElse. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/760466047/historyThis changeset only lacks one thing – a good changeset comment like "add railway=museum because it is better documented than museum=railway. I myself have added museum=railway to almost all objects I have edited in this changeset."
I hope that the the missing discussion before is not the only argument which DWG puts forth for a reversion. Does every error-correcting or self-correcting edit have to be discussed before doing it? Should I ask at talk every time before I correct 30 mispellings of "hihgway" over the world? We need a little bet bureaucracy but not too much.
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Comment from emacsen
Nakaner- on behalf of the DWG I am following up on a complaint about this changeset. As per my previous comment, a few things are obvious:
1. This is clearly a mechanical edit. Otherwise, the user would have had to go through and load up the entire world with their editor, looking for a specific feature. It's far more likely that they used eg Overpass to make this query and modify the objects.
2. Therefore, since this is a mechanical edit, we can look at the policy. The other examples you gave are all "obvious corrections", such as fixing Highway as a key to "highway". This is relatively harmless, though I would argue even this is something that should be discussed with the community if done en mass.
3. According to taglinfo there are 111 instances of railway=museum (which likely include these edits) and 113 instances of museum=railway, so I'd argue the tags are in about equal use.
Unilateral decisions to modify objects en mass to change their tagging is exactly the type of situation where the mechanical edit policy is in place to address.
So yes, the concern over this edit is the lack of community discussion around it, and w/o that discussion, it will be reverted. If there's community discussion around changing it, and there's general consensus in favor of it, then it will be allowed to go through in the future.
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Comment from SomeoneElse
For info I'm currently not seeing any mention of musem here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Railwayor here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Mappingwochenende_2014_1or here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Aktiventreffen_2014_2or via a google search of "museum site:http://lists.openrailwaymap.org/archives/openrailwaymap/".
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=42
is the "3d" forum - there's nothing on the front page of that particularly relevant to railways or museums. -
Comment from Nakaner
SomeoneElse, look here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging#Railway_museums
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Comment from emacsen
This changeset has been reverted in changeset 26664064.
Ways (1-20 of 34)
- 1
- 2
- Buharlı Lokomotif Müzesi (150332205), v7
- Chatham Railroad Museum (150720335), v3
- Colorado Railroad Museum (64357548), v5
- Deutsches Dampflok- und Modelleisenbahnmuseum (167037506), v6
- Eisenbahnmuseum Dieringhausen (48535151), v7
- Eisenbahnmuseum Knittelfeld (158981035), v3
- Eisenbahnmuseum Kranichstein (206348663), v3
- Eisenbahnmuseum Metelen Land (197804196), v3
- Eisenbahnmuseum Schwechat (176698279), v4
- Eisenbahnmuseum (205599002), v8
- Eisenbahnmuseum (31403501), v5
- Eisenbahnmuseum (203583666), v4
- Hejaz Railway Museum (112566263), v4
- מוזיאון הרכבת (196342330), v3
- Museo Ferroportuario (224687070), v2
- Museo Ferroviario Bonaerense de Avellaneda (175796602), v3
- Museo Ferroviario Pablo Neruda (127256445), v7
- Museo de la Estacion Ferroviaria (128436898), v3
- Museu Nacional Ferroviário (125671393), v4
- Museum Kereta Api Ambarawa (219409763), v3
Relations (3)
- Eisenbahnmuseum (3179865), v4
- Feldbahnmuseum Guldental (1337437), v4
- Брестский железнодорожный музей (967343), v3
- Laws Railroad Museum (368173946), v5
- Localbahnmuseum (370371730), v7
- Lokschuppen des Eisenbahn und Technik Museums Schwerin (905962180), v6
- Lokwelt (259167332), v10
- Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad Museum (367795470), v5
- Monticello Railway Museum (1734469287), v4
- Museo Ferroviario Baquedano (1088903121), v3
- Museo ferroviario (296398807), v9
- Museo Ferroviario (2303615791), v2
- Museo Ferroviario (2117057682), v3
- Museo Ferroviario (1841344790), v3
- Museo Ferroviario (2335311016), v4
- Museo Ferroviario (247464344), v10
- Museo Ferroviario (2110699728), v4
- Museo Ferroviario (462021598), v7
- Museo de Interpretación Ferroviaria Base Vages (2702117440), v3
- Museumsstellwerk Lpf (624176367), v10
- Muzeum Kolejnictwa (2154026022), v5
- Muzeum ozubnicové dráhy (456373146), v3
- National Railway Museum (373100369), v4
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