Changeset: 29477951
Fix taginfo similar key challenge - fix footway
Closed by flohoff
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (8085 en) |
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Discussion
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Comment from ij_
Why did you remove was: prefixed ways? Are you a local mapper or how did you consult Finnish community about this kind of edits in Finland? Is this some form of mechanical edit? Where's the description for this mechanical like edit?
And yes, we know that they don't exists anymore but we don't want some non-local to remove them prematurely to avoid somebody using obsolete imagery or local knowledge to redraw them.
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Comment from flohoff
Cleaing this up is a process of cleaning up the tag namespace. This is not a mechanical edit as when ways carried more than the was:* tags i left notes and other tags intact. e.g. for showing non existant features to prevent other to remap features.
Polluting the namespace with was:* tags is abusing the tagging. For history information we have a versioned database where anyone can have a look at what tags have been on a way in the past. So there is no need to copy tags to some was:* old_* or other strange tag prefix. This is namespace pollution and bloat in the planet.
For the issue of beeing a local mapper - the semantics of the ways have not been changed.
Flo
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Comment from flohoff
BTW: was:footway had a global usage count of 6 - So 6 ways had a was:footway and all of them were in the same area.
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Comment from ij_
Yes, I sort of knew that for cleanup but I was just entirely surprised by the effect,
that is, ways which I definately find still useful (even for couple of
years) were removed because of such "housekeeping task".I don't understand what you mean, your claim contradicts what you did. You
removed this way:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/183967962/history
How does it now prevent remapping it?
This is not for history maps or for such. You misunderstood the concept
completely if you think we're leaving them for such use.Once all the history information is trivially accessable in the
all the major editors, then maybe it helps to prevent remapiing but even
then it's a big maybe that remapping would be prevented as it would be
very likely that no visual clue is available without accessing the history
information first using that history interface no matter how trivial it
would be.Are you serious about the bloat thing? Bloat because of keeping demolished/removed features
with was:* prefix is so negligible that it's hardly worth to even mention.
Besides, was:* is clearly distinct from normal namespace, so you pollution
argument doesn't make much sense to me either!What old_* was included, I'm yet to find them but I'm certainly
interested in seeing if old_name=* in particular was affected?In addition, it is unfortunate that such "housekeeping" tasks seem to be
higher prioritized here that ease of mappers tracking changes in a easy
to access manner (history only objects definately aren't easy for an
ordinary mapper to look into).To reiterate my point:
You removed a recently removed ways completely so that they don't
appear anymore in the editor. I've had a case where people have redrawn a
parking area from old imagery (it's very hard/time-consuming to prove/find
these incorrect redrawings and therefore any measure to avoid). I'd want
to avoid that. Also, I've benefitted many times from was: prefixed details
others have left around (mainly with traffic_signs that were recently
removed, if there wouldn't have been was: I might have added stale data back from old videos as processing them takes more time than I have for inputting all of them!). -
Comment from ij_
And, I'm not against the cleaning itself, it's certainly useful!
I just find removing at least was:* very careless practice.
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Comment from ij_
I just checked Bing imagery. The old route is still very much visible there so I think that a correspoding way with was:* should definately appear in OSM DB too other than in history only! How do you think that somebody looking there would know it's gone now? Finding such changes concerning that little spot from history is way too tedious process with the current tools, so mappers definately wouldn't spend their time on that unfortunately.
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Comment from ij_
Adding some free format note=* (which you have kept) instead of very simple and obvious was:* seems very useless, IHMO.
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Comment from flohoff
Please - dont abuse tags for preserving history. We have more than 55000 different tags also because of this. This uses memory and disk space for all consumers although this way serves no purpose than to tell others a feature has disappeared.
I buy the argument of preventing to remap a certain feature. So revert this changeset and put only notes on all ways telling people this feature has vanished. But dont drag all this historic stuff through ages of osm.
Every sensible mapper can press ctrl-h on any feature and have a look at the history.
Flo
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Comment from ij_
I've removed plenty of was:*=* ways once they are not needed anymore or do more harm than good for mappers so please don't try to argue that I'd be using them for history preserving! :-)
Does ctrl-h access removed ways like the 183967962? AFAIK it doesn't and there isn't such service at all in OSM ecosystem which would allow easy access to historical objects (not to speak of that appearing visually in the editor)!
Notes are much less obviously that was:*=*, IMHO, as serves as a dedicated note about this particular case where something was removed from ground (it's easy to find later and therefore easier to remove too when not needed anymore! You seemed to have proved even that easy to find point by finding them yourself using some automation! :-)).
But I can certainly compromise with you and try to leave only was:highway=* instead of the 3-8 tags but I think such cleanup would still be applied incorrectly to them (as there was "only six" like you said).
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Comment from flohoff
You dont get the point. If there had been a note saying "Dont remap this feature - its gone" it would have stayed in place. There was a feature saying "i once was a cycleway and was lit". History said somebody changes it to hold this state 10 Months ago.
On the premises that OSM maps existing features one can observe on the ground this is already broken. It didnt even say why or when the state it once described disappered.
So the semantics of the ways removal stayed the same.
Other ways in other changesets i removed which held a note with information i could not understand e.g. most likely about the feature disappeared the feature AND the information of it disapperance stayed. So only redundant information which in the first place should have stayed in the technical history were cleaned.
So the question to ask is: If there is something this way should have told other mappers e.g. "Dont remap me" why wasnt this on the way?
Flo
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Comment from ij_
But that information was there, even you acknowledge above that you understood what was:* meant! If something is "was", obviously a sane mapper shouldn't remap that or do you disagree with that interpretation? ;-) So I don't understand why you think additional note=* would have been needed, it seems stubborn attitude at best if you say one is *required* add note=* even though was:*= would clearly be enough and even more precise what is/was going on there (e.g., easier non-Finns as it's easy to understand without much language skills)!!!
And besides, additional note is also here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/22421235 but that's no longer accessable from JOSM because you removed the way now (try with ctrl-h, do you see it or not?). The changeset comment is in Finnish but I'll translate that you: "camoflaged to look like normal ground already" (along these lines, no exact translation I know for the particular Finnish word hacky "terrainified already" would be the closest perhaps).
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Comment from ij_
I reverted this and few others where I think you certainly shouldn't have touched the ways to begin with (not all touching Finland though since I don't have time to go through enough object given my limited time). But the other suggestion about adding note=*, I didn't do since I think that is entirely useless and removing was:*=* like you suggest is plain wrong because it would make our local, more correctly timed housekeeping radar to perform worse due to noise and free-format in note=* value space, although obviously it would certainly hide them under you non-local housekeeping radar too.
Unfortunately I expect this "fixing" to reoccur again and again after some time by somebody else unless the taginfo process gets more clear guidelines according the mechanical edit policy (it's using massively computer search to locate objects in question and thus IMHO it falls under mechanical edits policy).
Ways (6)
Nodes (1-20 of 24)
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