Changeset: 32697633
more accurate information about amyndaio and the area nearby
Closed by The Locksmith
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (8491 en) |
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source | geodata.gov.gr |
Discussion
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Comment from wambacher
Hi pedro, what in hell are you doing there? deleting 268 Relations and adding strange "fire-borderies". And you killed macedonia too. see: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=517197#p517197
It's German but look at the Image.what are fire-boundaries and why did you delete the other reklations - including macedonia?
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Comment from wambacher
sorry, not pedro, but Petros.
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Comment from wambacher
macedonia has been fixed by me.
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Comment from 4rch
Seems like an infringement of the Import Guidelines (*)
Data contradicts existing boundaries (wrong projection?), no announcement on the import mailinglist, unclear copyright situation, etc. -
Comment from 4rch
Some of the edits did also introduce strange tags on highways, for example capacity=*. The edits seem to infringe the automated edits code of conduct also: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
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Comment from 4rch
Ok, I've reverted all problematic edits due to http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32715153
@petros: please make yourself familiar with the OSM data model and guidelines before you apply further changesets. Thanks
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Comment from SomeoneElse
What are the licence terms associated with "geodata.gov.gr"?
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Comment from The Locksmith
hi @wambacher and 4rch. I am petros and I work for CERTH research institute at Greece.
You are indeed right. We have not uploaded the data we wanted to according to the code of conduct (community buyin at least) and we are really sorry about that. Its not really an excuse, but we read a lot of information, however never found this page.
We will follow the procedure to make it happen formally. The uploaded data you see is not wrong.
The boundaries refer to the fires' departments jurisdiction in the area. We actually need it for a project we are working on, for Civil Protection at the area. The Capacities (although probably require an official tag like highway_capacity) are a way to model the maximum number of vehicles (per hour) for each link. This is also necessary in evacuation modelling.Hope I shed some light to my uploads and it is better understood now.
Any suggestions would be highly appreciated as we are not very experienced with osm-josm -
Comment from wambacher
Hi petros,
the main TECHNICAL problem was: You deleted more the 260 existing relations including political boundaries of greece and macedonia. You destroid good data instead of adding only "your" data. Please be more carefull when going on with this project.
Of course only after checking and prooving the licence und doing the "I want to import data to osm"-process. (import guidelines)walter
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Comment from wambacher
ps: please add a note here when the discussion about the import can start.
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Comment from 4rch
@Walter: There where other problems either, for example the undocumented usage of the "capacity" tag on highways. Maybe a tag like "car:capacity" fits better. But this needs discussion either.
Regarding the fire boundaries: the boundaries had an offset from the existing administrative boundaries. Either the existing boundaries or the fire boundaries were imported with the wrong projection. The boundaries need to get equalised before the import.As I've already mentioned above, I've reverted all informations you've added due to http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32715153 so there's no obstacle to make a new import following the Import guidelines: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
I'm sure you'll get help when you ask for example the Greece community at http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=27
and the imports mailinglist: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/ -
Comment from The Locksmith
First, thank you very much for the suggestions and the help. It is rather unfortunate that due to a wrong tag ("capacity"), you undid the corrections I made. It also included all the correct max_speeds, and many road names that were correct as I have been working on that for quite some time. On the boundaries, I discussed with the Greek community as suggested in the link you sent and they suggested to use the following tag system: "type=boundary", "boundary = fire". However, I get a lot of conflicts when I try to upload the corrected changes. Is there any way to undo your changes and let me fix it?
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Comment from SomeoneElse
@The Locksmith Rather than jumping in with both feet as you have done, I'd suggest making smaller survey-based edits first, and discussing them with the community both locally and internationally. If you screw up boundaries in an obviously not-thought-through import you can only expect to be reverted.
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Comment from wambacher
You can't use older changes which you createted some days ago and saved to local disk. because many things have been changed in the Live Osm Database. There the conficts are coming from.
Do your corrections of streetnames and such stuff in josm without any "tricks".Josm is an editor - so use it for edits.
And: what is about the Import guideleines? Ok, you wrote ONE mail and got only one response (from me), but that is not enough.
you must describe in wiki what your are planning to do, where the data is comming from and how you are going to import it. Especially how you will deal with existing data.
Your first try was: delete all old data und put new data in - that is the wrong way!!!If you do that again we will revert it.
btw: i added a block of about 50 City-boundaries in germany 3 years ago. AND I DID IT BY HAND, because it was the easiest and most secure way to do it.
Please do the same: Import boundary-Ways if they don't exist and do the rest (creating boundary relations) manually with josm.
Otherwise you will fail.
One more question: Did you ever in your short osm-live create a boundary-relation by hand? If not, forget it. You need experience. I started dealing with boundaries after 2 years of mapping, because it is very difficult. and i made big errors too.
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Comment from The Locksmith
i begun with this, having collected some information from the local team. I am going to introduce the traffic_capacity and boundary=fire on wiki, if i don't get negative suggestions. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Petros_kleid#Source_of_Information
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Comment from 4rch
@Petros, from which sources did you obtain the maxspeeds and road names? In http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32601644 you've mentioned Google Street View as source which is'nt a legal source for OpenStreetMap because whe have no permission to use it.
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Comment from 4rch
Regarding the capacity: good practice in OSM is, that every data should be verifiable which means that it's observable by other mappers. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability
The capacity information doesn't meet this criteria. Furthermore I don't see the necessity to add this information to OSM as you're calculating this information based on other, well established OSM keys.This calculation can also take place in your application.This would have also other benefits as maxspeed informations, etc. can change and then the capacity information you've added would be wrong as other mappers may not know your calculation formula and won't modify the capacity information.
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Comment from The Locksmith
@4rch i used google maps until i understood that it was wrong, then continued with bing aerial but didnt change the google maps reference in my tags.
About the capacity matter, i will try to introduce the new tag i suggest and the way it will be computed according to the Highway Capacity Manual. "Highway capacity manual." Washington, DC (2010) -
Comment from SomeoneElse
Re the legality of using the "Highway Capacity Manual" see http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/44294/tag-capacitynumber/44328
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Comment from 4rch
@Locksmith: And how were the speed limits obtained?
Regarding Highway capacity: I still think this isn't a suitable information for OpenStreetMap. As the highway capacity is calculated from highway, maxspeed and lanes tags it can be calculated externally. It isn't neccessary to store this information in the OSM database.
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Comment from The Locksmith
@4rch hi, as you probably know by now, we have a project in the area, so I went there during the weekend 11-12/7 and took the chance to move around and collect the speed limits that are somewhat critical to our research.
On capacities, I understand your point and I will not add them, however I kindly disagree. I think they are rather important for transportation modelling, transport management, evacuation management, understanding of how traffic behaves etcetera. It is a metric that can be measured (empirical capacity - this is how the highway capacity manual estimations were modelled) and depends on many road specific factors. As we have the measured flow in OSM (which might be deprecated given the temporal dimension of the measurement) I think we should also have capacities which are road specific and can provide valuable information to transportation related experts.
Anyhow, I trust you all that it is better for OSM to not include those characteristics. For us it is much easier to do it offline, as we already have that, but we wanted to contribute to this effort, thinking that it might be useful for others (i.e. transport engineers) who commonly use OSM (as for all the contents we add).
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