Changeset: 53436834
Added missing hyphens to nodes and paths in correlation with Ober-St.-Veit or Unter-St.-Veit.
Closed by Yktan Eszett
Tags
changesets_count | 14 |
---|---|
created_by | iD 2.4.3 |
host | http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit |
imagery_used | basemap.at Orthofoto |
locale | en-US |
review_requested | yes |
Discussion
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Comment from Spiegel0
Hi Yktan Eszett!
First of all welcome to OpenStreetMap and thank you for your contribution! Unfortunately, I think Ober St. Veit and Unter St. Veit is better spelled without hyphens ('-'). AFAIK, there is a policy in OpenStreetMap that thinks are usually spelled as seen on the ground (e.g. [1]). Especially if there is a general rule on how to spell street names and a street is signposted in a different way, the spelling on the streetsigns should be applied. Have you seen some signs or something similar spelled with hyphens? As far as I remember all labels on the underground stations are spelled with spaces and in a Book on Hietzing, the names were also spelled with spaces.
If you do not have any strong indicators that the spelling with hyphens is actually used on the ground, please revert your changes regarding Unter St. Veit and Ober St. Veit. Thank you very much in advance!
If you have issues with reverting your changes or if you have any questions regarding OpenStreetMap, don't hesitate in dropping a line.Best regards
Michael -
Comment from Kevin Kofler
Even the official map of the city of Vienna: https://www.wien.gv.at/stadtplan/ still uses the spelling with spaces, and also the ones with 'ß' that you changed. I think all these changes should be reverted, unless you actually see the changed spellings on relevant street signs, public transport stop names, etc. (And especially the name= tag on the public transport stop name should match how the stop is actually spelled on the signs, in the schedules, etc.)
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Comment from Spiegel0
Hi Yktan Eszett!
I just saw that you reverted most of your edits regarding the hyphens in Unter St. Veit and Ober St. Veit. Thank you very much for that!
Currently, the place=suburb node names are still written with hyphens. Is this intentional or were these nodes just not properly reverted?Best regards,
Michael -
Comment from Yktan Eszett
Hi Michael and a late thanks for your warm welcome!
First of all, I am sorry for any inconveniences caused by my edits. I've indeed been quite incautious in the selection of nodes during my orthographical delirium, won't happen again!
Regarding the remaining nodes: My decisive source concerning the spelling of Viennese suburbs and streets in general is the "Wiener Nomenklaturkommission", updated in 1999 after the enactment of the German language reform. (https://www.wien.gv.at/kultur/archiv/nomenklaturkommission.html)
In the section titled "Sonstige geografische Namen", Unter-St.-Veit is even listed as an example for this specific spelling rule, which led to my edit on the place=suburb node. As you've already realized, the spelling of both suburbs is and has been very ambiguous ever since. Local businesses and organizations rarely use the spelling with hyphens for the sake of design - which is totally valid and common elsewhere. According to Wiener Linien, even the underground stations are merely spelled this way on paper "as a provision made to safeguard existing standards", which sounds quite contrary to me. Upon further research I found out that the German language even invented a word for spaces mistakenly used for compound words: "Deppenleerzeichen" or - more sarcastically - "Deppen Leer Zeichen".
As for OSM conventions, I wouldn't know which one to adduce first. That "[you] should be aware that street signs may contain errors" sounds very logical in my view, but Ober- or Unter-St.-Veit is never referenced on any street sign (besides "Sankt-Veit-Gasse", which ironically uses hyphens to fulfill its role as composite noun). Additionally, street signs using an old spelling variant (like Nussgasse, formerly Nußgasse) don't have to be replaced immediately, only when affixing new ones. This led to my conclusion of prioritizing an official nomenclature. On an unrelated note which is not a concern of mine: Isn't the "don't use abbreviations" rule broken here? Shouldn't it be "Ober-Sankt-Veit"?
I'd love to hear your opinion on this stance, e. g. whether or not to index the "different kinds" of spellings in tags (alt_name?).
Kind regards,
Yktan -
Comment from Spiegel0
Hi Yktan,
no problem, to be honest, I havn't put too many toughs into the orography of street names and I'm always glad to learn something new. Thank you for your patient explanations!
I did a quick search and I was not able to find any official list of suburb names except the document you posted. Nevertheless, any source I found (e.g. [2]), including a book on Hietzing [1] uses the version with spaces. Since the document from Nomenklaturkommission is the most official source I see, keeping the suburb names with hyphens is probably the best option. (If someone else finds other reasons why to use spaces, we may have to repeat the discussion.) I also think that using the alt_name for the other version is an excellent idea. On using that tag, people will hopefully still be able to find the suburbs, even if they use the version with spaces. I'll soon add the additional tag.
According to the "don't use abbreviations" rule [3], the names should be indeed spelled with "Sankt", but I think that would even add more confusion. Especially, given that the official name abbreviates it and the abbreviation is not yet implemented in OpenStreetMap.
Kind regards,
Michael
[1] "Wien 13. Bezirk, Hietzing in alten Fotografien", Carola Leitner and Kurt Hamtil, Ueberreuter, 2006
[2] http://www.hietzing.at/Bezirk/bezirk_liste.php?tags=Ober_St_dot__Veit&menu=3
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Naming_conventions -
Comment from Kevin Kofler
For the "Sankt" issue, the consensus on the talk-at mailing list was actually to use "Sankt" if the official name says "Sankt" and to use "St." if the official name says "St.". In this case, the official name for the suburbs is given by the City of Vienna, the official name for the public transport stops is given by the city-owned public transport company Wiener Linien. Both use "St.", so that spelling should also be followed here.
Ways (3)
- U-Bahn Unterwerk Ober-St.-Veit (181123130), v5
- Ober-Sankt-Veit (367144203), v12
- Unter-Sankt-Veit (367152234), v8
Nodes (13)
- Ober-St.-Veit, Franz-Boos-Gasse (3586864371), v5
- Ober-St.-Veit, Franz-Boos-Gasse (2343276124), v6
- Ober-St.-Veit (3993274360), v7
- Ober-St.-Veit (1243190451), v8
- Ober-Sankt-Veit (3531012161), v6
- Ober-Sankt-Veit (655325183), v9
- Ober-St.-Veit (69577600), v9
- Jugendwohnhäuser Ober-St.-Veit (4904746788), v2
- Unter-St.-Veit (441966810), v9
- Unter-St.-Veit (3531012163), v9
- Unter-St.-Veit (3993274362), v6
- Unter-St.-Veit (1243190167), v7
- Unter-St.-Veit (60476133), v13
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