Changeset: 54747629
Adding local 4x4 roads in the area my fire department responds in.
Closed by rsavoye
Tags
created_by | JOSM/1.5 (13200 SVN en) |
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source | USFS shapefile recently updated, plus I live in this area. |
Discussion
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Comment from chachafish
Looks like we might have another road on a road here :) Could you take a look? "Crooked creek road"
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Comment from rsavoye
Ah... fixed it. That one is way out of my fire district. :-) I've discovered conflation software doesn't catch issues when there are two roads in the same spot, but have different lengths and names.
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Comment from chachafish
Cheers :)
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Comment from tekim
Hi Rob,
Looks like you tagged several residential roads in this area with lhv=yes (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/547794401), which according to the wiki, means that Longer Heavier Vehicles are allowed, which means up to 6 axles and 44 metric tons (97,000 pounds). Given the limit in the US is generally 80,000 pounds, are you sure that it is legal for such heavy loads to be on these roads without a special reason (such as being an emergency vehicle)?
Mike -
Comment from rsavoye
That value was in the original data file, I just double checked the shapefile. For the "TRUCK" tag, here's what it says:
Attribute Definition: Open to use of a vehicle described as "All motor vehicles greater than 10,000 pounds GVW that are designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property or equipment, such as lowboys, log trucks, chip trucks, end dumps and fire trucks licensed to operate on public roads."
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Comment from tekim
Thanks for the quick reply.
I would think there has to be some upper limit for the weight of vehicles which the state will "license to operate on public roads", or?
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Comment from rsavoye
I think it has more to do with the width and smoothness of the road than the weight of the vehicle. Bridges are about the only thing I can think of with a weight limit. A dirt road doesn't really care how heavy the truck is.
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Comment from tekim
The wiki seems to be pretty clear that the lhv key is about legal access ("Legal access permission for Longer Heavier Vehicle (LHV's) which can have up to 6 axles and carry up to 44 metric tons. ") rather than the physical configuration of the road.
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Comment from tekim
https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/csp/size-and-weight-information seems to suggest that in the state of Colorado, the maximum gross vehicle weight limit on non-interstate roads is 85,000 pounds, which is less than what the lhv tag specifies.
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Comment from rsavoye
I have no idea how it's decided by the USDA, but the tag is based on the access, ie.. it's "open", which to me is a description of legal access. The legality of acces may be based on other criteria.
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Comment from tekim
But it can't be legally open to a vehicle weighing 97,000 pounds (which is part of the meaning of the lhv tag as described on the wiki), because that is illegal in the State of Colorado unless there are special circumstances (like a permit).
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Comment from rsavoye
I think I see your point, they aren't long vehicles with 6 axles. hgv is closer, but maybe better is to delete it as a tag. I don't think the lhv tag is recognized by any renderer, but I added it for completeness thinking "big fire truck" access.
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Comment from tekim
From a legal standpoint, I think fire trucks have some exemption (you would know better than I). Sounds like what you are looking for is a tag that indicates that it would be physically possible to drive a large, heavy truck on a given road.
The hgv tag seems to also be about legal access rather than physical suitability.
I don't have any suggested tag or tags for what you are attempting show, but I can search the wiki, and we could perhaps ask on the tagging mail list.
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Comment from phidauex
According to this interesting reading, CO does have general exceptions to the usual weight limits for emergency vehicles. However, I think nearly every type of fire engine, even large type 1s, will be less than 86000 lbs by design. In the document there are a few examples of aerial platforms with a tiller on a third group of axles that could exceed 86000, but I'd pay good money to see someone try to make it up a dirt road in one...
https://www.fama.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/1514564588_5a466bec19c41.pdf
Weight limits at those high levels can impact even dirt roads which may be insufficiently shored, or have culverts to crush, or even just soil to liquify. I've had to move some substation transformers at ~120k lbs, and the gymnastics needed to move them is quite complex.
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Comment from rsavoye
Thinking about it, I think I'm just going to delete it from any highway I added it to as incorrect.
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Comment from rsavoye
I think the key part of the definition was the number of axles in the vehicle, which rules out logging or fire trucks.
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Comment from tekim
Rob, I appreciate your willingness to consider other viewpoints. I do think the information in your source file is valuable, it is just that lhv=* may not be the right tag. Perhaps truck=yes, or maxweightrating=<what ever is legal in Colorado>, or maxweightrating:hgv=* may be more appropriate to model the meaning of the original source data.
Mike
Ways (1-20 of 24)
- 1
- 2
- Crooked creek road (547794392), v1
- Tunnel hill (547794393), v1
- Moffat road (547794398), v1
- Leland spurs (547794399), v1
- Moffat road (547794400), v1
- Elk creek (547794401), v1
- Saint louis creek (547794402), v1
- Ptarmigan (547794403), v1
- Crooked creek/keyser cr (547794404), v1
- East elk creek (547794405), v1
- Vasquez (547794406), v1
- Little vasquez (547794407), v1
- Tunnel 3 area (547794408), v1
- Byers peak road (547794409), v1
- Leland creek (547794410), v1
- Aqueduct road (547794411), v1
- Aqueduct road (547794412), v1
- Saint louis creek cg (547794413), v1
- Mary jane ski area (547794416), v1
- Saint louis creek (547794420), v1
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